Sport or Martial Art?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Kobudo, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Acknowledging that even the best fighter can get caught does not mean that some of the toughest fighters did not train. Those are two very different things.
     
  2. Brutal

    Brutal Banned Banned

    I do mma and i know every trick in the book when it comes to the street. Most do.
    Im the type of person you really dont want to meet on the street unless you fight.

    Edit: if you do self defence, you dont want to defend yourself against a fighter. It will fail.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2012
  3. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    Agreed - but to provide evidence of the latter is very difficult...given no training probably means no press, etc... watch america's toughest jails or something like that!! :)

    Of course, training, physical conditioning, tactics, etc... will all make you better equipped to deal with a fight... that's not what I'm saying...

    The point I was making, is that mind set to me counts for more than training, people spend years training in whatever martial art, only to be 'caught' as you put it above by someone who has the right mind set, the intent to do damage and the real life experience of fighting.

    If you read a previous post, I also clarified, that when I say 'no training' I mean 'professional training' - If someone goes out regularly and fights for real, that is training, although not professional if you're talking about ability in a real fight you're going to learn more through trial and error and real confrontation, adrenaline, etc, than you will in a safe dojo, gym, dojang, type atmosphere. Even in competition you wouldn't get the same exposure.

    Of course, if you have someone with the right mindset, real world experience and professional training, they would have somewhat of an edge I'd think!
     
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I'm going to develop a new law based on Godwin's but involving how long it takes in these discussions before Musashi is mentioned.
     
  5. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    Depends how you defend yourself...

    Avoidance of the situation is the best form of self defence...

    Walking away is the next best form of self defence...

    If legal where you are, or for who you are, a gun can be a good form of self defence...

    I wouldn't make sweeping statements like that, as everything is relative, and as mentioned above, anyone can be 'caught' - surprise and unanticipated attack can catch even the most seasoned fighters unaware.
     
  6. Brutal

    Brutal Banned Banned

    Yes it is a sweeping statement.
     
  7. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    you've made some good points Kobudo but as many have pointed out i don't see the reason for your posts. It seems like you're just trying to show how intelligent you are when it comes to self defense, debating, and picky you are with definitions. almost everything you've mentioned can be seen in further detail with a quick sweep of the search function.

    I also disagree with the intent statement. I don't feel a sucker punch means he/she had the right intent to end the situation. I feel it was more dumb luck. While motivation may certainly be a very large part of winning a fight it is by no means a substitute for good experience.

    I also feel your analogy of the man who walks into a bar every single weekend and starts a fight does little to prove about his intent or skill without training.

    to me it illustrates the type fo person who gets into fights. nothing more. even with tons of fighting experiences realistically he will still have many flaws in his game that someone who is calm under a situation like that with skill from pro training from fighting just as hard with people in top physical condition and trained to fight harder and properly,will punish him for. a good example being former UFC fighter Roger Huerta defending a women at a bar from a man twice his size.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9JpeKKBScA"]Roger Huerta in Bloody Street Fight! -- Caught on Tape -- Ex-UFC Fighter - YouTube[/ame]

    this is not to say people can't be self taught martial artist, but even with the case of greats like musashi or even people in completely different fields like Jimmy Hendrix, they were still taught by pro's just in an non personal and informal manner. both grew up ingrossed in a culture of their art and as such learned tons from those around them creating eventually their way.

    as a matter of fact I believe its lunacy to go on about claiming who has proper intent and who doesn't. I hear this all the time from people on that "MMA is just sport, but (insert traditional style here) is for killing" guys. you don't know what kind of crazy sociopathic thoughts go through normal peoples head day to day, let alone top fighters. and the last thing i think I'd ever want to do is make someone like Jose Aldo or Jon Jones want to end my life with their fists.

    Even still I believe Something like "intent" comes down to a personal level mental state of someone. Not what the art they study teaches. There are people who teach karate much like yoga, with emphasis on kata and being at a state of peace, and then there are those who teach it like a raging fire with emphasis on kumita, and real fighting, but it will be how the person using it applies it which will determine how deadly it will be.

    maybe they just want it for fun, or maybe they want revenge on people who oppressed them. obviously the latter will be the one who would attack more mercilessly.
     
  8. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    It's been said before and I'll say it again. Being Dangerous is not the same as being a "good fighter".

    The old "Felony Fights" hosted a couple of fights between trained MMA fighters and violent ex-cons where the MMA fighters repeatedly dominated without any real trouble.

    The kind of people you are talking about are far more dangerous than MMA fighters because they often have that high strung aggression and a nothing to lose mindset, making them more likely to attack in the first place.

    As a thought experiment, would you rather be sitting in front of a 16 year old 70kg male with an unstable personality and penchant for random violence or in front of the full 121kg's of Brock Lesnar? Now which one would you rather fight?

    If you're smart, your answer to the last question should be the opposite of your answer to the first question.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2012
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    At that time in Ricky's life he was most likely (a)drunk or (b) high - significantly he checked into rehab the day after the story broke

    Sucker punching someone is not an indicator of skill, merely an indicator that the individual getting sucker punched may need to polish their situational awareness

    And do you have the bodybuilders name? Do you know his background? Nope - but you assume he is untrained for some reason.

    Random stories do not prove anything in relation to the topic, nor do they prove any of your points
     
  10. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    Like all of your posts, it was a sweeping, generalized assertion that MMA is king and all other learning is useless. And, like all of your posts, it makes me wonder why you're here.

    Since Brutal decided to bring up MMA specifically, how does MMA fit our definitions of sport and art? Maybe that will get us back on topic.
     
  11. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    You'd be surprised how draining even a quick fight can be due to a myriad of factors. I've seen officers in relatively good shape sucking wind after a minor tussle with a resisting subject which barely lasted maybe 30 seconds.
     
  12. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    He knows a few not in the book apparently - like his legendary (i.e "made up") rucsack defense
     
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    MMA is a sport-specific ruleset

    The individual components of said sport are martial arts

    Pedantism FTW!!!
     
  15. finite monkey

    finite monkey Thought Criminal

    So we have Martial Arts, Martial/Combat Sports, how about Martial Games such as chess and Risk. These teach martial strategy.

    Also all team ball games are meerly stylised warfare so should be considerd as Martial
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    tiddlywinks!
     
  17. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Some of the greatest damage to the concept of "martial arts" was done when Americans came back from the Far East and thought they knew what they were talking about. Even in Asia the idea of a skill being taught for fighting fell into a different category than an art studied for self-improvement.

    In the PRC, for instance, true "martial arts"--- training fort self-improvement or self-cultivation ----didn't take hold until after the Chinese Revolution in the 20th Century. That change was a function of Chinese nationalism rebelling against the influence of Western sports such a Boxing, Basketball and Baseball brought by the missionaries.

    Prior to that Revolution Military Science was taught at a rural level in villages for security, or to the Ching Army to build their skill level. The idea of organized styles of Chinese MA really limited availability and certainly was not something the average guy on the street wandered in and paid tuition for. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  18. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    Did you actually read the post, or any of the following posts? No one assumed he is untrained, the fact he may have training we're unaware of is actually stated explicitly.

    I also accepted that it is not the same thing, but an example of how anyone can get caught out.

    I don't see yout argument, other than to argue, your points have already been addressed, or didn't need to be
     
  19. Kobudo

    Kobudo Valued Member

    That's true, but it's ok to be sucking breath if it's over.

    As I said, I agree with you if it lasts any longer than a few seconds.
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yes I read it - and in it you stated "I was answering a point"...something that your post subsequently failed to do

    The example you posted with explcitly to show how someone "untrained" can beat someone "trained", and it failed because the significant factors involved are not those two variables
     

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