Sport or Martial Art?

That's enough of the personal attacks. Disagree all you like. But do it properly.

 

That's a good point, the end result definitely has an influence, in that case I'd say boxing is more martial then kenjutsu.

This is the kind of debate I was looking for, I've been accused of MA snobbery by discussing sport vs martial, but as I've said many times, I train in, and love both sides of the coin

 

Thanks for the input - I actually mean that!

I respect your opinion, it was only the 'this is better than this' stuff I disagreed with, as that's not where I was coming from

 

I call what I do Fun Doesn't matter if someone says it's sport or martial.

 

I agree, that's why I train, because I enjoy it!

 

iPhone's do not lengthy discussions make....

The reason I was polemical with that initial statement is because in reality it is attributes than contribute the vast majority of the success from a physical perspective (speed, timing, strength, stamina etc...) and sports develop those attributes better than other methods.

 

lol would you mind sharing your martial arts experience with us sketco ? shouldn't it be on your profile anyway this is a martial arts forum.

 

thats funny because it looks to me like the only person who agreed with you is sketco.

 

Agreed to an extent - strategy and technique are also big hitters not just limited to sport

 

Your purpose in this thread is?

You didnt like the original question so you posted here because?

Have you made any contribution to the discussion?

Are you trolling?

Unless you have something to contribute, please go elsewhere...

 

Which are non-physical n'est pas?

And again we reach that definition "grey area" where one you acknowledge as a "art" (Iaido) has less application to combat (that elusive "martial" aspect) than a classified "sport" (such as boxing)

It can be pointed and counter-pointed all day and still no resolution...there are actually a plethora of MAP threads on it already. Hence for me the only yardstick it "does it do what it is supposed to?"

 

Actually I wasn't agreeing entirely. My points were:
The ultimate goal of martial arts is to teach fighting in a rule free environment
Least rules possible for realism without sacrificing saftey ex. The videos I've seen posted by jwt on his scenario training
Sport is very beneficial to developing attributes, skills, physique etc but that you can get bad habits from training in a limited ruleset too much.

 

it really doesn't and only a person who has never used you tube or is looking for a sore face would say so.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de0IV9bOKNE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de0IV9bOKNE[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBZcJwfk3kw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBZcJwfk3kw[/ame]

 

or you will do what ?

 

Well, that's basically how any given boxing bout is going to go. One well-conditioned and -trained proponent looking to enforce his will on another. And vice versa. To me, that's a pretty good model for combat.

I don't know that I'd say "snobbery." I just know that people generally have an agenda when they seek to make that distinction. I'm not always clear on what the agenda is, as in your case. But we push these distinctions for a reason.

I agree with the premise that training method has to match up with stated goals and objectives. But I also feel very strongly that the practices employed by sportive martial arts are really very useful in helping people 1) internalize the technique and concepts of their art and (more importantly) 2) employ them effectively UNDER PRESSURE. Doing a block properly in the Zen-like calm of a dojo is one thing. Doing it while fatigued, panicked, or hurt is entirely another. And I think that combat athletes have that down in spades.

We like to plug into these warrior archetypes and then reason that, because we're wearing the same clothes or using the same terms, we must be experiencing the same mental, emotional, or physical processes that they do. But the simple fact is that a man practicing a sword kata after actually having killed a man using these moves is clearly going to be making very different mental associations and going through a very different internal process than is the man who has only ever trained in the dojo. Just as I won't pretend, for one instant, to know what it feels like to charge a Marine with a .45-caliber pistol just because I happen to have trained some of the same movements as a Moro warrior.

I do believe that some things can engender a certain mindset. But we have to be careful not to cross a line into magical thinking. An unchallenged mindset is a fragile mindset. Or, as Mike Tyson famously articulated, "everyone has a plan until they get hit."

 

I accept your point, the 'sport' boxing is actually more martial than the 'considered martial' Iaido, ergo definition cannot be drawn..

what about Judo? where the aim is to throw someone on their back, rather than knock them out, is this still martial training nowadays, or purely sport, in your opinion?

 

If you were to perform those same moves on someone who wasn't trained to hit the ground properly, any one of them could end someone's day rather messily. I'd say that's pretty martial. It isn't solely a question of the thrower modifying his technique for safety. The throwee has been especially trained to take it.

 

My agenda is simple

Myers Briggs, personality profiles - I am stimulated by debate!!

I have massive respect for both sides, as I said from the beginning, I also train both sides of the coin - I just wanted a conversation where we could debate, is this still martial? or is it sport? and see what other peoples thoughts were on the metter, food for thought as they say...

It's a shame it derailed into what's better, as that wasn't the intention

 

again youtube is a wonderful thing.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7enCn8vCSA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7enCn8vCSA[/ame]

the aim in judo is to throw someone, period, both shoulder's need to be touching the mat because in sport you need classifications like that to stop disputes, this means absolutely nothing to a judoka in a combat situation. Have you ever been thrown full force on any surface let alone concerte ? take the video for an example, a knock-out is not necessary (although it is an entirly possible out come) for a throw to end a fight.

 

So all those folks who have to add grappling to their training to compete in mma have been wrong all this time?

I have and no. Yes it works well generally but if you smash somebody's skull with your little knuckles you're probably going to break them. Training for using little gloves or no gloves in a nhb or mma fight is different to training to box for boxing.

Old bareknuckle boxing used to include at least limited grappling for a reason and correct me if I'm wrong many of those guys wrestled on the regular. Training in a more free environment leads to generally better performance as well as having more tools in your toolbox. I'm not saying an mma fight will beat a boxer 10/10 but I'd still give the edge to the guy who has practiced multiple ranges, a full range or striking, grappling, clinchwork, using a wall/cage.

Again this is not a sport vs martial thing for me it's a more rules vs less rules thing. If I'm training in judo I'm going to ask how to throw against non-judoka... Strikers, wrestlers, etc.

I only view training these isolated areas like judo, boxing etc in the grand scheme on incorporating them into a free environment.