Sport Karate vs Traditional Karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Van Zandt, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    What's the basis for that statement? There have been a few point-stop fighters who have successfully transitioned to world-class full-contact fighters. Not "many," but several. I'm not aware of one single person who got their start in Kyokushin or boxing or MMA who has gone on to be a world-class JKA karateka or WKF karateka. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Listen, point-stop is a really complex game. There's a lot of very subtle distancing, strategy, trickery that goes on. It's basically like epee fencing with bare hands, and epee fencing is a really complex, challenging sport. Pooh-pooh point-stop sparring for being less realistic than MMA if you want (I'd say that Shotokan and Kyokushin are both equally unrealistic, just in different ways), but don't pooh-pooh it for being easy.
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I never said it was easy - and before you jump on me I still train alongside world class point fighters and enjoy the sessions. Kind of like the difference between sparring in the gym and fighting in the ring.

    No-one is taking anything away from the fighters, but at the end of the day it is not a measure of fighting skill, and most of the fighters themselves agree with this.
  3. Lorelei

    Lorelei Valued Member

    One day I'll figure out how to multiquote......

    I see what you mean about judging standards, but if a ref was scoring strikes that were 6" off-target when the ruleset for the tournament was 2" away, or contact, then I would say each one of his calls was a bad call.

    You're absolutely right though - bad judging makes for sloppy techniques. Why train to produce controlled jodan kicks which finish 1-2cm away from target (I'm thinking of non-contact rules here because that's what I'm most familiar with) when you've seen others score with a wild scooping kick that finished 6 inches away?

    The best way to address the problem, as I see it, is to have some kind of moderating system in place for referees (just as exam boards have for script markers). We have training and refresher courses for refereeing, but I'm not sure it's enough. If all refs knew that the bouts they were judging would be filmed and critiqued by their peers later, maybe they would be less likely to apply their own criteria to judging, and more likely to stick to the competition ruleset. Just a thought........
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yes, I agree. Many refs in karate organizations are required to take courses for refereeing. I think it is related to who the sanctioning body is for the event.

    I really don't want to focus on refs though. They do have a difficult job and many are very good at it. Like peeling an onion, each layer has problems as well as benefits.

    I believe there is a problem with the non-contact rule set too. People train to pull punches... in a real situation/fight, there are many and this is a fact that end up pulling punches instead of hitting through the target. They do this instinctively.

    IME, people should always be training to strike though a target, so the control is to prevent injury, not to build muscle memory to pull punches in a real fight. How is this addressed in competition?

    Another problem is with the use of padding in competition. In some cases the use of padding hides bad technique and encourages less control of technique (which increases the risk of injuries). I think padding is a good thing for training and safety, but when used in a competitive format, I think the use of padding can lead to problems in some cases.

    I see things in competition like turning your back on the enemy, trading blows, etc. as bad habits. I feel these are partly due to ego in that turning the back is a sign of disrespect to the opponent. Should not one always be protecting themselves, particular in competition to demonstrate an awareness? And trading blows? What happened to always assuming that the enemy could have a weapon, let's see how many can trade blows with a knife? And what happened to always assuming there could be multiple attackers... so how in single combat competition can one demonstrate an awareness in case there are multiple attackers?

    I don't expect any answers, I just raise the questions.

    I'll go back to my original points in a previous post in this thread. While competition has benefits, competition can also lead to and encourage bad habits.
  5. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    The problems you highlight with protective gear are not specific to competition, but specific to any sort of striking training. Pulling the power of punches can lead to bad habits. Not hitting the target (either missing to the left or right, or stopping an inch short) can lead to bad habits. Relying on protective gear can lead to bad habits. But you're going to have to do one of these things during striking training, competitive or otherwise, because the alternative (hitting people full-force bare-knuckle with no protective gear and no restriction on target area) is going to land people in the hospital on a regular basis. And nobody wants that. If you want your face to be in once piece after a month of striking training, competitive or otherwise, you're going to have to institute some sort of protective measures.

    As for turning your back being disrespectful--no it's not. At least not in American culture. I turn my back every single time I walk back to the en garde line in fencing. Walking backwards is silly. Now, turning your back to hide valid target area is kind of ridiculous, but that's a problem with a particular ruleset, not a disrespect issue.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2011
  6. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    While there are many problems with shobu ippon as a ruleset, I'd say these aren't amongst them (I've no idea whether this applies to "point fighting")

    If you turn your back on an opponent you're risking an insta-lose strike to the back of the head or spine.

    Similarly, you're unlikely to try and trade blows if you know you can lose in one fell swoop if the other guy lands a clean strike.

    There are converse problems, like people being excessively cautious and spending an entire match circling rather than daring to make the first move, but in terms of instilling a sense of your own vulnerability, I think traditional shobu ippon kumite is quite good.
  7. wayneshin

    wayneshin Valued Member

    The WKF fighters I train (and I would imagine most are the same) are trained to hit wth impact the the body and control to the face. The distincion is really not a problem even for children. I don't think making that adjustment is as hard as all that. Distance would be far more of an issue.

    I agree with your point on using padding leading to bad habits in terms of how you hold you hand but there are very few competition formats out there that don't use it. Also many put the gloves straight on when they are going to work bags or pads. I never do for exactly this reason.

    Turrning the back in WKF was a major problem in the 90's and early 00's and is essentially agaisnt the rules which state that if a competitors turns his back after scoring the scoring criteria are not met. These days it has been (mostly) rubbed out.
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I believe any bad habits need to be addressed during training. I've seen some people who only are training to win in competition develop bad habits and because those bad habits do not penalize them in competition, they do not address them in training.

    For example: How many people out there have gone from a non-contact or light contact competition format and found in a real fight that they pulled punches?

    Like I said before, it is like peeling an onion. You cannot identify a single issue that causes all problems and you cannot identify a single solution for all problems because as each issue is addressed, a new layer of issues is uncovered.

    For those using padding in competition and training, what else do you do in training to ensure that any bad habits developed from using padding are addressed?

    Note that I'm not saying, don't use padding, I'm asking if you use padding, what additional training do you do to address any bad habits that could be developed from it. Note that I'm not saying, don't compete, I'm asking if you compete, what additional training do you do to address any bad habits that could be developed.

    We use padding for working some self-defense training to allow full contact hits, we also train and compete in Muay Thai, competed point tournaments and Enshin Sabaki full contact karate, for example. So in all of this we try to keep mindful of good structure and combat principles to minimize and address any bad habits that could develop along the way. Truly, IME, the only real way to find and address bad habits is to have practical experience, but that does not mean you cannot try to pass this on to others. Just some thoughts.
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sounds like a good format.
  10. Paul A

    Paul A Valued Member

    [ame=""]YouTube - what is Kudo? (Daido Juku)[/ame]

    I'd like to see Kudo as a basis for the future of Karate competitions.

    Cross between Karate and Judo (nevermind the fact that most of the Judo techniques can be found in Kata).
  11. gorinnosho

    gorinnosho Kendo Addict

    Paul See Koshiki, very popular in the 80's and 90's.
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Another recent thread posted a link back to the 'Great Kata Debate 2010'. I had a moment, so I had a read.

    I couldn't help but notice this:

    Have your views changed then?
  13. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    Its just the Good Ole FSK circuit yankie style innit?
  14. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Do you mean with regard to point fighting? No, because point fighting has some carry over to "real" combat (albeit not as much as full contact).
  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Including (in the original example video) encouraging techniques that would leave you getting your ass handed to you?
  16. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    The original video isnt that far from what the likes of alfie "The Animal" lewis and stephen "the Devil" french( a notoriouls drug dealer "Taxer") competed back in the classic freestyle circuits. and you wouldnt wanna meet either in a a dark alley.
  17. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I don't fight like the guys in the original video. Besides, I've never seen them (Ray Daniels or Jason Bourelly) participate in a "real" fight so I don't know what effect, detrimental or otherwise, their participation in point fighting has had on their "real" fighting ability. I suspect (but it's only a guess) it wouldn't have that much of an effect at all as they both made the transition to full contact (WCL, in which they're two of the most dominant fighters) very easily.

    Have I used the same techniques from point fighting/semi contact in "real" fights? Yes. Have I used them well? Yes, even stopping the fight on a number of occasions. Have I ever used techniques from katas/patterns well in a fight? No. Hence why I prefer even light contact point fighting over kata training any day when it comes to preparing a person for "real" fighting.

    Going back to the post you linked to from 2010, I will admit I sound like a douchebag when I wrote that. I will say now that I won't begrudge anyone their reasons for training in martial arts, whatever those reasons might be. Hope this made sense! :)
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I can remember seeing Alfie Lewis spar back in the early 90s and it didn't look anything like that.
  19. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I recall a story from years ago that Alfie Lewis went to prison for being a serial killer or something. Or at least aggravated assault. Any truth in the matter?
  20. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    Ah dunno if tahts the case, but he was a bit mental.

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