Sport Karate vs Traditional Karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Van Zandt, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The problem I have with ALL karate competitive formats (even knockdown or Kudo) is that it seems they don't actually reflect how karate should be expressed in combat.
    Going by current bunkai trends (which makes sense to me) a true karate format would start the fighters a foot apart, involve much grabbing and unbalancing as well as hitting with every part of the body available (forearms being a major omission for example) and not end until one bloke was on the deck and the other free to leave the arena.
    So essentially I see debating which format is better is really debating which format is least wrong. :)
     
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    The issue with this is that bunkai is not designed for 'square go' style matches. Bunkai (and combative application of karate techniques as found in Kata) is for Karate as defined by Itosu:
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah...I was still trying to keep it within the bounds of a competitive activity that *could* exist in the real world. :)

    And...if it can be used to incapacitate a couple fo ruffians it shouod also be capable of incapacitating one ruffian.
    Imagine the further ruffians ran off and you just have to defend yourself against the ringleader.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2011
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Put them all in High Gear or something similar, rule out attacks to the neck and spine, and make it full contact point sparring?
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah...add a gi over the top so you can grab sleeves and lapels I'd say.
    Start them really close, as I suggested, so you don't have to negotiate in from outside kicking range. You can start in range to start going at it (as you generally do in reality).
     
  6. wayneshin

    wayneshin Valued Member

    Yes. There is a profound difference in what constitutes a score in GKR and WKF. That which would be penalised for contact in GKR is just starting to get hard enough to score in WKF.
    Some of the proposed changes surround how the refs operate. The most significant however will be that penalties will now only be a series of warnings and will not give points to the other fighter.

    I think the point has already been made that it is what it is. Most of those who are involved at any level do not confuse points fighting with reality.
     
  7. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OH9E5X8B3g"]YouTube - Raymond Daniels Vs. Kim Do!!![/ame]

    "On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place."

    In other words, I am utterly baffled and moderately entertained. (Watch all the way through).
     
  8. Lorelei

    Lorelei Valued Member

    Agreed - point-stop sparring is not realistic.

    So, how would you define 'reality'? Do you equate reality with traditional karate? Would freeform, full-contact, no-stop kumite fit the bill? Would the bout only be decided by knock-out, or would a time-limit be permissible? Or do you believe that traditional karate can only be tested in a real, life-or-death situation?

    I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest, I genuinely would like to know what the rest of you think. If this thread is going to compare 'sport' karate with 'traditional' karate, we could do with a base-line definition of the two. 'Sport' karate, from the posts so far, would seem to encompass any point-stop kumite, whether non-contact or full-contact. Definition of traditional karate, and how it can be translated into a tournament situation, anyone? (PASmith and JWT seem to be working on the finer points of the tournament bit!)
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Reality is what you do instinctively when under fire.

    Reality is what goes into your muscle memory.

    Reality is that many forms of competition and training can build bad habits as well as provide benefits. It's those bad habits that are a big issue as far as I'm concerned. Some people are training to pull punches, even in real situations when they intend to hit full force, they find they pull punches.

    So part of reality in training is not to build up bad habits because it takes a long time to unlearn bad habits. IMHO.
     
  10. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    compare this:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8h-jJTmJfI"]YouTube - Afrim Latifi vs. Leon Walters 1 WKF[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TKG4gHzUUI"]YouTube - Afrim Latifi vs. Leon Walters 2 WKF[/ame]

    to this:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qImXBLkK4_A"]YouTube - Leon Walters Pain and Glory Debut[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL2DoQjA4t4&feature=related"]YouTube - Leon Walters Vs Kevin Hunt at Pain and Glory 08[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RdyyIRHNg&feature=related"]YouTube - Leon Walters v Lyndon Knowles Pain & Glory Underground[/ame]

    now compare it to semi-contact :p
     
  11. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    That's like comparing a pineapple, a tomato, and spinach. I mean, some might argue that the tomato and the pineapple are marginally more closely related because they're both fruits, but all three are pretty different in my mind.
     
  12. Lorelei

    Lorelei Valued Member

    OK, so that covers realism - full contact MA does damage. How about traditional vs sport karate? MMA may be full-contact and realistic, but you can hardly call it 'traditional' - IMHO it hasn't been around long enough - and it isn't based on karate specifically, even if some MMA fighters come from a karate background.

    I've heard tales of how masters of karate schools would be challenged and would fight, sometimes to the death, to defend their own honour and that of their school. I've even seen the movies - no refs, no rules other than observing dojo etiquette (unless you're evil of course, in which case you'll get your comeuppance by the final reel) and the place gets smashed to smithereens.

    Since fighting to the death is frowned on in this day and age, how should traditional karateka settle their differences, or determine who is the greater exponent of the art?

    :argue: :fight1: :fight2: :lowblow:
     
  13. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    that IS traditional vs sport karate

    it's a guy who does sport karate, who then goes and fights using karate techniques in a full contact environment. why can you not call that traditional?

    he does shotokan, and uses shotokan techniques, there's straight tsuki-waza, mawashi-zuki, mae-geri, mawashi-geri, etc. all traditional shotokan techniques. same as what machida does, basic tsuki, basic keri, good tai sabaki, machida even does sweeps and takedowns. sure, it's not a movie-fu barrage of death, but it's karate alright.
     
  14. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Firstly I should say that in my opinion this is a bit of a misnomer since (as I mentioned while quoting Itosu above) traditional karate is not designed to fight other Karateka, it is designed to fight 'villains and ruffians'. :) In other words, when properly trained the techniques are designed for fighting against a committed common assault rather than the probing guarded techniques of a professional.

    However, since then Karate has moved on somewhat and each style has pretty much relegated their Kata to a sub style, not used in fighting, and developed a new style of movement and attacking based on Kumite and kumite orientated kihon (as opposed to Kata orientated kihon). I personally view this as classical Karate rather than traditional Karate since the aim of training has shifted.

    So, how to decide who is better at classical karate? By better I assume we refer to who can apply it best under pressure, not who knows it the best. This is a question that taxed Funakoshi, and in Karate Jutsu (page 27) he suggested the following:

     
  15. Martial novice

    Martial novice Valued Member

    And just in case you're having trouble distinguishing between the two, look for a tell-tale top hat or optional monocle. Ask yourself whether you acquired a nemesis maybe on a skiing holiday or in a nuclear reactor. That's a villain all right. A ruffian on the other hand, look for a flat cap and you'll probably also detect a strong regional accent.
    The villain is typically the more dastardly of the two, but leaves big openings, such as while twirling his luxurious moustache or tying maidens to railway tracks. :)
     
  16. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    TRUE - one of my private students is a serving police officer and we often train with me taking the part of "a nefarious villain" :) :) :)

    By the way, villains also give you great openings for taking counter measures as half way through an encounter, when in fact they have the upper hand, they will stop and talk in great detail about their dastardly plans.
     
  17. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Thank you John for:

    I need to preface these comments by stating that they are based on my experience in the UK - other countries might be different.

    I suspect that luckily for us, that is what happened, because if karate had stayed as a 'classical' unarmed combat system, It would never have gained in popularity and the vast majority of us would never even have heard of it.

    I took up Judo in 1970 and back then Karate and Kung Fu were pretty rare - certainly not 'public knowledge' so to speak - of course the movie and TV (Bruce Lee, David Carradine, et al) helped the boom but if there had not already been a trend towards a more sport orientated form of Karate - would anything have been available here (in the UK)???
     
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hey, I'm just quoting Itosu's letter to the government. I can think of different terms for them, but that would violate MAP's TOS, :)
     
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    To be honest I don't think that Karate is inherently superior to our (then) existing arts of boxing and wrestling. In fact, to be honest, and I'm aware this might be construed as heresy, lesson for lesson, I would expect someone who trained in these to be fitter, healthier and a better fighter than someone with the same amount of training in Karate.
     
  20. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I posted that particular clip for a reason. I wanted to give an example of the level of skill fighters can reach in the sport. Y'see I love freestyle sport karate / point fighting or whatever name people assign to it. Daniels is an example of a "point fighter" who has, for want of a better word, owned fighters from nearly every other type of stand up fighting style be that boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, Taekwondo, etc. Sport karate is also thus far the only martial art I've come across in which individuals with joint replacements are actively competing. I met one fellow at a recent state championships in Arizona who had a full hip replacement. For someone like me, who retired last year due to my hip replacement, it gives me hope that I might one day be able to take part in this light contact "game of tag." Though I didn't think I'd be kicking up such a hornets nest with my original post! :)
     

Share This Page