Split: Sayoc Kali

Biting

Hi GB,

Biting, gouging etc = Kino Mutai, if you believe the publicity ;-)

Hi Stuart (sorry about the misspell earlier),

> guess I'm a little unclear on how they were "cashing in" after the movie anyway. They choreographed it. People loved it. And they charged what people were willing to pay. Isn't that just free market economics?<

Yes, free market economics. As is *my* decision not to get involved due to the perceived high price!

As for cashing in, only in the sense that, as far as the UK market is concerned, they "appeared" rapidly after the release of the movie, and were asking inordinately high prices.

Bill

 

hi bill, seminar or workshop sounds ok ,plus i like newcastle especially osborne rd area,. cant seem to think why.
the gracie,s were unknowns to most at one time too,it also faced a lot of criticism.when ive been in the us there is always a lot of support and good reports about sayoc kali,as mentioned earlier guro inosanto highly rates it as does marc denny of dog brothers .
as pat says, peter what is one mans food is another mans poison ,i have personally found it to be a very thought out systemn. I have never found myself feeling in danger while studying the defence.
some students find bjj complicated yet pick up a systemn like silat or kali which others find complicated.I,ve had students who get confused with kali yet become very technical at bjj.its horses for courses as they say. -mick shore

 

Workshop

Hi Mick,

Osborne Road...Hmm, what do I know about Osborne Road? Bars, more bars, and lets think, ohh I know more bars! ;-)

I just called but got no reply, so I'll try again later. Or you could PM me with your number just to make sure I have the correct one.

Paul Tennet is interested in bringing you up for a grappling course, so we can talk about a two parter, half Sayoc knife, half grappling. Whatever, we'll work it out.

>the gracie,s were unknowns to most at one time too,it also faced a lot of criticism.<

Yeah, but wasn't the critiscm based around their claims of creating a new and superior style of JJ? I could have got that bit wrong, they have been around a while!

Oh, and can you PLEASE use capitals? It doesn't waste that much time...;-)

Bill

 

yes bill,i know my computer literacy is crap, but i spend most of my time teaching or training, not sat in front of a computer screen. if paul is interested in grappling that is ok by me.

mick shore

 

Selamat malam FMAers,

I watched a Sayoc Kali demo very intently a couple of years ago, and was impressed. Some great disarms.

Of course there was always another knife drawn immediately following each disarm as these guys seem to have a limitless supply of assorted knives on those harnesses.

It's also nice to see er...larger gentlemen.....moving with finesse!

 

Hi Mick

Agreed. Each person has their reason for training and it could well be how the techniques were presented at the time of introduction to the UK. That said, some elements are certainly unrealistic...i.e. civilians carrying a belt with numerous knives. In that situation, some of the close range lifting / trapping techniques were rather slow and leave the defender vulnerable to a second knife attack or multiple attackers.

One Sayoc training method that does have scope for danger has to be the famous 'Fire Dance.' That can burn the feet!!! Ha Ha Ha

As for me, I'll stick with the direct simplicity of the Tulisan ssytem.

Gumagalang

Peter

 

No worries Bill. Very kind of you to bring it up though.

No question. There are training opportunities here for Sayoc. But I've not pursued them. For that reason among others.

True enough. But charging what the market would bear is the name of the game really. And the market bears quite a lot after you've choreographed the likes of Jason Bourne, Riddick, etc.

Personally, I haven't seen anything in Sayoc that both 1) greatly interested me and 2) I haven't seen duplicated in other FMA styles. All the knife stuff seems a bit over-the-top to me. But different strokes for different folks.

In any event, I mostly just wanted to dispel the notion that Sayoc was a newcomer. That's all.

Cheers!


Stuart

 

Sayoc workshop

Hi Stuart,

In any event, I mostly just wanted to dispel the notion that Sayoc was a newcomer. That's all.<

Fair enough.

I'm in the process of arranging a workshop with Mick Shore for the start of November. I'll add it to the Events page when its all sorted out. And give an unvarnished report afterwards...;-)

Bill

 

That sounds good! Any idea of a venue, cost etc?

 

The Sayoc brothers have been around for quite some time, it is only recently that they have come to the attention of the UK public and I know from personal experiance that they do know what they are doing in the FMA world. As I said I seen Chris Sayoc back in 1992 at the WEKAF World Championships.

Funny I was sorting out my loft yesterday and I came across some old WEKAF World Championships results from back in 1994 (Cebu), and was perusing through them only to notice that I came 3rd in the Sayaw division against Mike Sayoc. I was at the Philippine Council of Kali Eskrima Arnis Masters meeting a year and a half ago and GM Bo Sayoc was there too and well respected by all members of the council, so really they are not an overnight happening.

As they say, it takes many years to become an overnight success.

I will admit from what I have seen of the Sayoc material which is only via DVD, (I am sure they have a lot more than is shown) It is not my cup of tea and yes there may be things there I probably would not agree with doing myself, but that is my choice.

As for being over priced? Well that is all matter on what value you put on something.

I spend thousands every year travelling to the Philippines to train, Am I paying too much?

I am certainly paying more than my students who will get the same material that I have learnt, but does that mean they are paying too little?

I have people pay me to travel all around the world to teach them, I have just got back from Australia, New Zealand and Mexico. Now obviously they have to pay for me to be there, for hotels, airflights and such and I have to make sure I can still pay the bills. Am I charging too much or not enough???

You have to bear in mind that 99% of my students will not pay even 10% of what I have paid over the years in monitary terms for the knowledge I pass on to them, but does that make them any less worthy becuase they paid less than me?

Or do I put a higher value on the knowledge I gained?

You could also say. Dont expect to drive a Rolls Royce when you are only willing to pay Ford prices.

I have met some greats in my time who I felt where highly under priced and others who where highly over rated and over priced and I would not even pay for them to shine my shoes.

If you really value the knowledge your receiving, money and distance should not be an issue, but if you hold no value in it at all then no matter how cheep it is and how close it is to you then you will not buy it will you?

Just my thoughts.

Pat

 

Lets look at t another way.​

For instance, I once again travelled to the Philippines this year to train for one month, now I trained with many top class GM's as I usually do as all of them have something special to offer me and all are different in their own unique way.​

For instance I trained with the Carin brothers (the son's of the late great GM Intin Carin of VICAR Doce Pares), now if I where to put monitary value on it and they where on my doorstep (which they are not) training with them would be highley undervalued, cheep as chips if you like.​

But now lets look at the realities of it.​

I take my family with me and my wife train's too so first we have the air fare for me and 3 others (I will just use the Philippine leg of my trip and not the round the world trip I paid for)​

Air Fare: £2000 approx ($4000)​

Hotels: £600 ($1200)​

Food etc: lets say £600 ($1200)​

Incidentals keeping the kids entertained etc: £300 ($600)​

1 day stop over in Singapore: £300 ($600)​

That is a total of £3800 ($7600) before I even pay for training.​

Then I had to ensure that there was at least £3000 ($6000) in my bank account to ensure all the bills are paid while I am away plus a bit more while I drum up work on my return. So that in effect means I have to find no less than £6800 (£13,600) before I even leave home. And that is for one month in the Philippines, now I have just got back from a two month tour and yes I did earn a little from seminar fees on the way round, but no where near the amount I paid out.​

Bear in mind, I have been travelling to train in the Philippines for 20 years so just think, how much money do you think I have spent on my travels, put it this way, if it where not for FMA I would be a rich man, but do I think the knowledge I have gained was expensive? No, on the otherhand I thin the knowledge I have gained is invaluable.​

Now when I brought GM Dionisio Canete over to the UK to teach a 2 day seminar I spent somewhere in the region of £3000 ($6000) to get it off the ground what with air fares, hotels, advertising etc, I had 70 people paying £70 ($140) each for 2 days intensive training and I made enough to make sure he had a good seminar fee and I got the money I paid to set it up back, so in effect I spent no money in the long term and I made no money from it either but I got some qualitly training with who I consider the top GM for free. So because it cost me nothing in the long term does that mean the training I got and the expeariance my students got from meeting and training with him had no value???​

You would be surprised just how many people told me that they could not travel a couple of hundred miles and spend a couple of hundred pounds to train with this GM, (even though they claim to be part of his group) simple because they said they could not afford it? (cant afford it means it's too expensive) Surprising isn't it. ​

You have to ask yourself what value do they put on the knowledge they where going to receive?​

Obvioulsy if some people feel it was too expensive, then rightly so they should not go as the information they receive no matter how much is charge is of no use to them as they do not value it, but on the other hand if they really value it then money and distance is no object.​

So what do you think should be done? You could simply arrange seminars with people and basically get free training over a couple of days for yourself and then tell people you train with them (all be it in a limited way) plus you give your students the oppertunity to see top class GM's? ​

Or spend a few more pounds (dollars) which you will never get back travelling to train with them on a one to one basis without the stress of organising such a large event with the possibility of lossing money and get a higher quality of one to one training in a more relaxed environment and then tell your students that they have to do the same because that is what you do and if you really value the knowledge then they would follow your example? Even though it will cost you far more than bringing them over in the long term, after all a high price means high quality does it not?????​

Or a combination of both because you know full well that not everyone can afford to do what you do, or has the passion that you do and that people train for different reasons?​

Now lets look at the Sayoc Kali fee's. I beleive it cost around $8000 to get one of the top Sayoc Tuhon's over, plus expenses. So OK the organiser has to find somewhere in the region of $15,000 (£7500) to break even, so he has to ensure that he will get about 75 people paying about £100 ($200) each and that way he gets his training for free, but if he only manages to get lets say 50 people paying £100 ($200) each then he has a short fall of £2500 ($5000). So OK he has lost a bit of money but you have had the oppertunity to train with someone in the upper ranks for £100 ($200) havent you? ​

Is that value for money or not?​

But then you have to ask yourself how much would it cost you to travel to the Sayoc's to train with them for 2 days, hotels, air flights, food, time away from work (that is lost income too), do you place enough value on it to warrent doing this? ​

You have to also bear in mind that the Sayoc's may well earn their living soley from teaching and like everyone else have bills to pay and have to keep a roof over their head so with that in mind you can understand why they put such a value on their time cant you?​

I do not charge anywhere near as much as they do simply because I do not see teaching seminars and private lessons as my first income, I earn my living from working in construction. If I where to soley rely on teaching as my living I would have to charge somewhere in the region of £2000 ($4000) per seminar plus expenses just to break even and I would have to have at least 15 to 20 seminars a year in order to do so. But because I have another form of income and simply charge what I loose from taking time away from work, does this mean my knowledge is of any less value because my seminar fees are cheeper???​

You may charge £2 ($4) or even £100 ($200) for a lesson and you are teaching it wrong then it's expensive isn't it?​

So when you say expensive, I ask, expensive according to what?​

All relative dont you think?​

Best regards​

Pat​

 

I spoke to Guro Krishna yesterday and he gave his views regarding the post as follows :

1st Post.

PG Peter Lewis was formerly ONE of my most senior students, others such as Graham Lawrence had been training longer than him and were of the same rank. Peter Lewis was "not involved" with introducing Sayoc Kali to the UK, he was exposed to some basic material. To introduce it, you have to be qualified to teach it.

Tuhon Tom Kier teaches Sayoc Kali to the Navy Seals, and various Law Enforcement Units, if it was "overly complicated" they would not train with him, they are only interested in learning very direct, economical, and functional material. The only time a technique is "dangerous to the defender" is when you don't know how to apply it.

We recently had a UK based Bakbakan Instructor contact us for training, he said he found the system had too many "complicated forms". Does this make the system bad? Of course not, it's all about personal interpretation.

2nd Post.
Peter Lewis says "could well be how the techniques were presented at the time of introduction to the UK". The presentation has remained the same to this day. It could be that Peter Lewis did not understand what was being presented. Perhaps like the Instructor criticising the Tulisan system? "Civilians" are not told to "carry a belt with numerous knives". The Sayoc Training Rig, is just that - a "training" rig. As a training tool, it has numerous benefits. If you want to know more, the Sayoc site has a whole section on FAQ's about this training rig.

The "close range lifting/trapping techniques" may have felt "rather slow" for Peter Lewis, and left him feeling "vulnerable", they certainly have not felt that way for the rest of us practicing Sayoc. Like with any new material learnt - the simple solution is put in the repitition, in time you get faster, and you will feel less vulnerable.

Regarding the "Fire Dance" or Sayaw as we call it in Sayoc. No one has burnt their feet yet!!! Ha Ha Ha.

Finally, PG Pete says "I'll stick with the direct simplicity of the Tulisan system". You do that Peter, and let others stick with the direct simplicity of the systems they practice.

Gumagalang,
Krishna Godhania.

 

Hi Mick

Thanks for sharing the thoughts of PG Krishna. To clarify:

While not related at all to the thread, I understand that Graham may now be a Senior Associate Instructor of Warrior's Eskrima, although I recall PG Krishna commenting that Graham had experienced a lapse in training for personal reasons, thus achieving that grade at a later time. Graham is a great guy and my congratulations to him for his continued success.

1st Post

My comment was that I was involved during the introduction of Sayoc Kali to the UK...not with the introduction. That is not a claim to any teaching authority or to helping to introduce it...although at the time it was encompassed within Warrior's Eskrima and as such taught under that banner.

2nd Post

Yes of course I may not have gained a deep enough understanding at that time and similarly I would hope that PG Krishna's understanding of the overall art has since evolved and developed through his continued exposure to the art during many trips to the USA,

Good to learn that no feet have yet been burned. Ha Ha Ha

All said and done, yes it is each to his / her own and of course several senior Bakbakan and associated instructors, including Master Topher Ricketts and Master Rey Galang and of course Grandmaster Yuli Romo have all successfully taught their techniques to law enforcement officers, agencies and armed forces personnel in many countries since the late 1960's, also indicated the effectiveness of these training methods and arts.

Gumagalang

Peter

 

:banana: Could he be the one? Ha Ha Ha

"...has many years experience in a number of Filipino systems including Rapid Arnis, Warrior, Bakbakan Kali Ilustrisimo and Zu'bu Kali Ilustrisimo.
The aim of this class therefore is to teach a synthesis of the drills and techniques from these systems."

Gumagalang

Peter

 

Well the intial question raised was that some people thought Sayoc was too expensive, I made a point of stating expensive comapred to what?

I dont think it matters whether some one likes the style or not, or finds it too complicated or not.

I have had the fortune to be exposed to numerous styles and systems of FMA. Some things they do I like, other things they do I dont like. Even in some of the systems I train in now, there are bits I dont like so I simply dont do them.

I am pretty sure I have students, hell I know I have students that have dislikes for certain areas and certain drills, but that is human nature and like anything in FMA they take from me what they can and make it usefull for themselves.

That is the wonderfull thing about FMA, we are not robots, we are given a whole bunch of techniques, drills and principles and we are asked to make them fit us, not us fit them.

I am not a great fan of the Sayoc system otherwise I would be doing it right? But that does not mean it is no good, it simply means it is not suited to me. I am sure there are people out there that are not great fans of Rapid Arnis too, but that also does not mean we are doing it wrong either, it simply means it is not suited to them. There are people out there who do not like Bakbakan for one reason or another, but that does not make them any less effective does it?

Remeber it is not the style/system that is good or bad, it is the person performing it that makes it good or bad.

So back to the orriginal question.

Too expensive compared to what?

Best regards

Pat
​

 

The Sayoc Training Rig

Mick, could you explain more about the Sayoc training rig? Is this some kind of weapons belt and is it or something similar used in other forms of kali?

 

With all the Kali Eskrima Arnis (FMA) systems/styles I have come across it would seem this type of training rig is pretty much unique to the Sayoc Clan. From what I have been told it is something they developed and produce for their own training methods. But I am sure Mick or PG Krishna can clarify this in more detail.​

Best regards​

Pat​

 

Hi gb and pat,
The sayoc training rig is unique to sayoc as far as i know.I have seen other rigs used by atienza kali for their bladework to carry swords.The training rig is a good training tool to teach places of weapon concealment ,quick response reactions and multiple disarms which can be fed by the feeder to the defender continuously one after the other without having to continually bend down to pick up your blade, multiple blade deployment can be practised as well as aforementioned fast response techniques more conveniantly with the rig.A full explanation can also be found on the forum of sayoc kali by some of the senior Tuhans.
regards mick

 

It should read Tuhons,my spelling mistake-thats what happens when i try to post half awake-mick

 

Hey Mick, I thought I was right, but I am also sure that the Atienza Kali group have based their rig on the Sayoc Kali groups rig as after all they are heavily involved with Sayoc anyway arn't they?

Hey Mick, I think that bender you tried to follow me on back in Albacete, Spain in 1997 has affected you after all. A bit of a typo their mate. I am sure you meant to write TUHON and not Tuhan, You see as this term does not have a Spanish base like some other Pinoy words the letters 'O' and 'A' are not interchangable to denote 'O' for male and 'A' for female, and even if it did I am sure the likes of Tuhon Chris Sayoc may get a little irrate at being called a female dont you think?

Tuhan mean's 'GOD' so I dont think they would like that one either.

The Spanish San Miguel finally kicks in eh Mick:wow::jawdrop::fight1::cyborg::fight2::fight3::turtle::happy: