Sparring - even more important at lower belt levels?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Slavist, Jun 29, 2005.

  1. Slavist

    Slavist New Member

    Well, this thread comes from a discussion we have been having at the Tang Soo Do forum about when sparring should be introduced. Some opinions are that sparring should be introduced at lower levels, while others maintain that you should only spar at higher levels, when you have mastered the techniques.

    I support the first pool of opinions. I think that the more proficient you are at a technique the more you can do without sparring. For example, a 3rd dan in Choi Kwan Do can probably kick some serious butt, because his mastery can allow him to adapt his techniques to a fight. For him sparring, while important, is not that necessary.

    At lower levels, though, sparring seems to be more important. Chances are that you are not good enough to adapt statically learned technique to a real-life situation. You can see what works and what doesn't in sparring. I know that I have had several bad blocking habits which I learned during static drills (first three months of training, while we are not allowed to spar) that were quickly kicked out of me.

    So, bottomline is that it seems very important that you start sparring early in your training, hopefully after a 3-4 month introductory period. However, if you go long enough, you will eventually achieve enough proficiency to be able to adapt your techniques to a real fight. Sparring makes mastering a techniqe a lot faster.

    PLEASE NOTE THAT IS NOT AN "IS SPARRING GOOD" THREAD!!!
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2005
  2. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I agree with the first part. But I'm a bit mystified by the second.

    Early is good in my opinion. Part of learning a technique is learning to apply it under a more freeform environment. I think you should learn a technique, drill it on equipment, drill it in limited sparring, and drill it in free sparring. It's the best way, in my view, to "own" a technique.

    I don't think that need ever goes away though. If a higher belt can adapt his technique to the situation, it's only because he's gotten experience with it. Why would anyone then give up the best available exercise for gaining that experience? I don't believe you ever learn enough that you get to stop experimenting in the laboratory. And that's precisely what sparring is. The lab.


    Stuart
     
  3. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    What Stuart said.

    Also I would add that it might be equally important at higher belts because you often strat to learn the less aplicable srtuff (Jumping reverse crescent kicks and the like) so you need the sparring then to remind you that you fight with your basic techniques.
     
  4. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    I think sparring is important at all levels, but should be introduced as quickly as possible, for a number of reasons:

    1. It's one of the biggest fears people need to get over when they join a MA school. Whether fear, discomfort, or just plain cluelessness, they need to get used to getting and being hit. Cuz in reality, the big bad wolf isn't going to stick an arm out and wait for you to toss a technique.

    2. It's good to learn to use the techniques from the start and build upon each one. Padwork and one steps are all fine and good, but sparring is the best pressure testing we have. It's the best way to learn what does and does not work for you.

    3. You have to be able to put everything together. And it's a lot easier to do it with two or three techniques than doing it with 40 for the first time! It's smarter to put the gear on and use those one or two techniques than to wait and get even more overwhelmed because you didn't start until you have too much material to try and work into your sparring.

    4. You can't master a technique if you don't pressure test it. You can drill the same technique over and over and over, but it's 100% different when a punch is coming straight at your face. Plain and simple.
     
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Good points all, BKG!

    But I'm highlighting this one because I think it gets overlooked so often.
     
  6. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Thanks. I'm just thinking of my system. We have to learn close to 300 techniques to achieve Black Sash. Imagine never sparring until then, and try to catalogue 300 while being punched, kicked, and shoved around. I can barely remember the 70 or so I have learned now, and that doesn't count all the punches and kicks and strikes!
     
  7. Topher

    Topher allo!

    I agree, i should be introduced early.

    Where i train people spar after a few class/weeks. It non contact and with a higher belt. The aim is to get the student used to doing multiple and continuous techniques against a moving opponent.

    I dont agree that if your proficient at a technique then sparring isn't necessary. You maybe great at all the kicks, but putting them in combinations against a moving opponent who is trying to do the same is a totally diffrent game. Technique does pay a big part but there is also subconscious/mental elements and fear that you need to overcome. No matter how good your technique is, if there is fear there, it will probably win.

    Whether it should be contact or non contact, i think in the first few months it should be no contact, but then i think it's good to use light and medium contact so the student can see what he is doing wrong. I find that i can do certain techniques in non contact that just wouldn't work when things get more heavy. Blocking is also diffrent and if you dont get used to really blocking techniques, and not just pretending to block, you gonna get hit.

    I personally dont see the need for full contact as in sparring i see contact as a way of letting you opponent know that he is open, or isn't guarding or blocking etc. Medium contact can do just that (although if they keeping making a certain mistake, let then know a bit harder). That being said, we have gone quite hard with some hits. Some people might see it as light contact, others very hard. For me its just right.

    It will probably be diffrent in various styles. The above is how i perceive sparring in kicking/striking styles (Tang Soo Do etc). In Wing Chun i we dont pull our punches and do go quite hard.
     
  8. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    we usually sart sparring after a couple of months. i think its good to start out fairly soon, when people can use the techniques they have learned but before they start to develop bad habits that can go along with just doing techniques and not sparring
     
  9. Slavist

    Slavist New Member

    It is not that you don't need sparring, it is not as important. You still have to do it, but chances are that you are not going to have your rear-end handed to you if you don't. WHile if you are a beginner and just have static learning and try to pull something which has worked statically, but is wrong, you will probably won't have the time to pull a second technique.

    Case and point: I used to block with a downward sweeping motion. The instructor warned me about it being incorrect, but I still did it from time to time in light drills. As soon as I started sparring I kept getting drilled in the ribs, and have stopped doing it since.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2005
  10. someone335

    someone335 New Member

    I think sparring should be introduced ASAP. It teaches how you use techniques, and if you aren't using the techniques right the master or instructor will correct you. Of course, sparring isn't that great if you have black belts vs white belts or something like that unless the black belt understands they should be teaching the white belt not beating them senseless.
     
  11. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I think that's a dangerous line of thinking dude.
     
  12. Vega

    Vega New Member

    I posted a lengthy reply already about this in the Tang Soo Do section but I will just condense what I already posted. I think medium-full contact sparring is a necessity after a few months of classes. I took TKD and Kickboxing where we sparred full contact and I did get hurt a lot but I got used to taking a punch/kick without letting adrenaline get the best of me far as getting sloppy with my techniques. Reality is that one day you may be put in a position to defend yourself and if your training consisted of only non contact sparring and you get hit directly in your nose then no matter how much martial arts training you have chances are you will freeze up and your mind will go blank and that’s when the beat down begins:cry:
     
  13. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I feel its important to spar at all levels but not from day 1. Perhaps at the end of month 1 or 2, it is ok to practice sparring from day 1 but only with your opponent defending and not attacking back, this gets people used to movement and stiking a moving taget also seeing how people cover up and defend.

    At higher levels it is equally important as I feel if I have not sparred for a month BOY am I off the pace when I come to do it again, only slightly but I notice it, my brain is faster than my hands work, the sharpness is not there.

    I think there needs to be a constant need for it as you are just as likely to be attacked at 5th dan as you are at white belt and the sharpness should be a constantly improving battle.
     
  14. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I suppose it depends on how complicated the techniques are. If they're really complicated you should probably wait a while, but I see no reason why students can't spar straight away with things like punches, front kicks, roundhouses etc.

    IMHO you're overestimating the amount of fighting ability that comes from mastering the techniques alone, because AFAIK CKD guys don't spar at all. Things like strategy, being able to handle the hits, evasion, reactions and keeping calm under pressure become instinctive through sparring (they can be trained in other drills e.g. padwork but not as well), and without that experience, being able to perform the techniques counts for little.

    I haven't been able to do a whole lot of training over the last year or so, only a handful of lessons, due to a combination of overriding commitments from university, lack of money, judo club sessions being very on and off and my mate being unable to drive me to MMA. However, even the limited amount of training I have done made me miles better compared to how I was before. It's amazing how much you can improve by getting more hands-on with your training.

    I'm sorry to be black and white, but I really think sparring is always important. As I've said, I really don't think that mastering techniques alone is enough, even if you do it for a really long time, because there are certain skills that you just don't learn that way.

    I think sparring provides more tangible results to begin with, but is always essential.

    EDIT: Homer J Simpson: do you use gloves when you spar? If so, I don't see why you can't get stuck into some form of actual contact sparring straight away.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2005
  15. pulp fiction

    pulp fiction TKD fighter

    I totally agree with BaiKaiguy. When you are applying a technique under pressure its when you know it will work.

    Sparring at lower levels increases your self confidence. Besides its the best way to apply a learned technique.


    It also helps you to know if you like MA or not. Sparring is a very important part in every martial art.
     
  16. beef

    beef New Member

    I think at low-levels drills are good at first before you get to sparring - e.g. basic Chi Sau, fighting forms, etc. Then later light sparing using the techniques you've learnt. The danger is that if you spar too early without having learnt the techniques correctly all your form goes out the window and you revert to sloppy fighting that doesn't teach you anything?
     
  17. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Yep. The counterargument is that you can't learn a technique correctly until you've learned to use it against a moving, responding, unwilling target. It's my belief that technique goes out the window in sparring because the gulf between the ideal training methods you use for the first however many months of training differs so vastly from the techniques as they're actually applied. And we expect students to make that leap in the middle of a sparring session.

    In my experience, doing it that way doesn't result in bad technique necessarily. But bad strategy and tactics. I used to teach at a taekwondo dojang where the higher belts had beautiful technique. What they lacked was intent, timing, sense of range, combinations, how to take a hit, etc. Many of the finer points you learn from a freeform environment.

    The thing to remember, though, is that there are lots of types of sparring. Different levels of contact, restricted or isolated sparring (where one person can only use punches and the other can grapple, for example), etc. Different types of sparring can be used to develop different sets of skills. And even the highest belts can benefit.


    Stuart
     
  18. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member


    My main criticism is that people need to learn to get hit and to hit someone, and you're not gonna get that outside of sparring. IMO, newbies need to be hooked up with black belts/sashes who have the appropriate levels of control and won't just look to wipe the floor with the rookie. A good BB can spar with a rookie, tag them a few times without traumatizing them, and help them to overcome the discomfort that comes with hitting and being hit as we are socially conditioned to believe that "hitting is bad"...
     
  19. WeenusBandit

    WeenusBandit New Member

    Sparring should be introduced at white belt, but CONTACT sparring shouldn't be introduced until at LEAST 3 years of training. As a white belt, you don't have the control or discipline in your technique to safely deliver an attack to your opponent that makes contact without hurting them. It takes years to develop enough control in your technique so you CAN make contact, but in a controlled force. Just like 'beef' said, if you free-spar without proper technique, it's sloppy sparring, and nobody really wants to see that.
     
  20. beef

    beef New Member

    You and Oweyn make good points - I think if you have a BB to spar with that's a good idea as it's controlled sparing then. Two newbies trying to bash each other up is not the best idea! :D
     

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