Sparring and Taijutsu:

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by zenpokaiten, Feb 21, 2006.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    You're a ninja, it's your job to be misleading :p
     
  2. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Curious as i didnt know that round kicks were in the BJK syllabus. Ill say this they look the they hybrid tkd/muay thai kicks i learned along time ago when i first started at a mma school.

    No kamae though, of course that doesnt matter as you should be able to fight from any or no posture at all. IMHO.

    Outside of some things i was able to pick up, looked alot like mma to me.

    Edit to add. I thought it was cool, but then i realized out side of a few things i saw it does not look like i would expect. Foot work, kamae,striking?
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  3. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    So PR how should it look for a semi competent BJK'er to apply it to a spar or to a real situation?
     
  4. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    There are all kinds of things in ninjutsu that people don't know are there. These videos don't look anything like MMA to me.

    I wouldn't look for anything from these arts outside of Japan, but that's just me. I'm probably not the best person to ask.
     
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    LOL Pr thats not what i asked I asked what you feel it should look like.

    Secondly you would think a major and important kick like the round kick if it was truly in the arts, would be tuaght from the beginning. Which school does it come from? Do other Koryu arts feature round kicks?

    What kind of mma are you watching if that didnt look like it to you? I saw round kicks, Thai style low kick checking, and a ton of things i did while in mma. Out side a few things that were different, that was mma. Minus the ground fighting.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  6. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    MMA did not invent round kicks. They existed long before MMA. Thai style low kick checking- well it existed in other arts (for example - obviously Muay Thai) before MMA too.

    MMA is a mixture of martial arts that existed before it did. So, to define a style as looking like MMA because of individual elements you see in MMA, even though those things existed in other arts long before MMA, is flawed logic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Oops, misread.

    There's a scene in the Takagi ryu video showing them wearing the nagabakama in which they show walking doing mawashi geri and other kicks to show how the cloth could be used as metsubushi. If pushed, I'd say Koto ryu though.

    Kicks are taught through ryutai undo and the different walking techniques through other means besides the obvious as well as basic kiso practice. I'm not sure what is or isn't taught at your school, so I can't answer that.

    It didn't look like MMA sparring to me, maybe it did to you. Just typing in mma sparring in the youtube search field yielded something that to my mind looks a lot more like MMA sparring.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5DAr1uvJ1c"]MMA Sparring from Phuket Top Team filmed in the month of February 2013 - YouTube[/ame]

    What it should look like would depend on what things you were working on, from what ryu, at what level. The footwork and angling of the ryu, particular strikes and strategies that ryu uses, as well as weapons if weapons sparring would all have to be demonstrated. Each ryu has particular ways of fighting that don't all look the same, so without those differences, I wouldn't call it representative of Takamatsuden ideals. Kukishin is more of a battlefield art, so you would expect to see more of a traditional "sparring" mindset, though it shouldn't be back and forth as much as receive, receive, receive, destroy(of course counter striking on the receiving end and moving in a way that adhered to Kuki sabaki). Koto ryu is more ambush related(attacking from their blind spots, moving off to their side, and is more scrappy and nasty), Togakure more about escaping and doing the amount of damage that lets you get away as you disappear from their sight. Takagi might start from seated or standing and Shinden Fudo wouldn't have any kamae or a lot of punching from a standard lead.

    Even if you decide to square off in a boxing like guard and have some kind of give and take sparring session, you should be practicing different aspects from the schools mentioned, as well as working on timing, distancing, and many other things. However, another important skill that needs to be ingrained is economy of response and waiting till the last moment to move, in effect baiting or leading the opponent to think he's damaged you and therefore creating an opening and feeling of victory. This kind of skill could potentially be trained in sparring but it isn't the easiest thing to do without a lot of patience and tolerance for getting hit.

    For example, the leg checks you saw are not the ones I learned in Koto ryu(keri kaeshi) or the kinds of strikes to the kicking leg as you see in Kukishinden ryu for example. The lack of changing height, angling, the way the clinching was done, and many other things make this a poor example of Takamatsuden principles and techniques at work in "sparring" and the lightheartedness and lack of intensity made it hard for me to take seriously as any kind of "pressure testing."

    As you analyze the kata, there is always a certain way encounters go in each art. That narrative and progression is also something that should be apparent in the more freestyle training that you do. You start from a certain position, move through a certain range and contact, and the encounter ends in a certain way. If you throw the guy down, there are certain things you do before resetting or restarting. You do not just stay at one range dancing around and firing of shots at the other guy.

    Again though, the details would depend on how you structured the sparring. Also, wearing a lot of pads, gloves, cups, headgear and mouthpieces makes it a bit different when you are doing a lot of things that require more freedom of movement, so you might prefer not to use a lot of safety gear. However, this raises the danger of injury if you want to use a higher level of intensity, so there are tradeoffs. You shouldn't really spar standing joint locks unless you have a high degree of control and weapons also require some modifications for safety's sake. Limiting certain things due to their danger also alters how you would perform. We train for eye attacks as well as groin strikes and kicks so to take them out of your sparring for safety would mean that you would never get a chance to train them or against them except for in the kata.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  8. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    What other Koryu arts have them? What kata are they found in from what school?
     
  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Why don't you investigate for yourself. That is the only way to get better in martial arts. Questioning things is fine, but relying on others to tell you is a dangerous mindset.
     
  10. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Pr For me it did look like the MMA i did, as we had a HUGE number of TMA guys from all over and they all shared stuff. So we did boxing stuff, we did trapping and karate style blocking(not of the jwt flavor) and all sorts of non typical stuff. It was a heck of a lot of fun.

    I may ask about the round kick, as i think i remember being told that BJK didnt do those kinds of kicks, but i may be mistaken. Its been a while since that conversation.
     
  11. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Actually that was a rhetorical question as i know it is next to impossible to get legit information on koryu training with out actually living in Japan and joining a koryu.
     
  12. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Ill say PR this has been a very good conversation for me. I want to thank you and everyone else for it. I do love a good back and forth, even if im on the loosing side of it.

    Apparently there is more depth to this then i thought. I honestly thought that the stomp kick and its variants were all the kicks we did in this art... Only other place i saw them in the BJK was the ninja online training that a RVD student made.

    Edit to add. You mention squaring off in a boxing guard. Are any of the kamae meant to be fighting guards? I can Ichi being useful. When i was sparring the stance i settled on was similar but my lead hand drifted more to the center line. I feel that by keeping my hands drifting between those points i have a much more effective guard. I dont keep still hands.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I have no idea about Ninjitsu, but various roundhouse kicks exist in many many MA's across many cultures.

    It is like when Silva KO'd someone (I forget who) with a front kick. The MMA world was all atwitter with the amazing kick and treated it like it was a new thing because until then it wasn't seen very often. But as Rogan said, it was nothing new to TMAists. In fact, that is one of the - if not THE - very first kick taught to people in many MA's.

    Me, I learned snap, knife edge, rear and roundhouse kicks as my first kicks as a white sash in CLF.

    PR or someone in Ninjitsu would have to tell you if it is in that art, but I would be very suprised if it is not. Just because it is such a basic staple in so many other arts.

    MMA largely did not invent moves, it just combines moves from other arts and uses them for their competitions. So, to say "I did that in MMA, so it is an MMA move" is just not an accurate way to judge Ninjitsu or any other sparrring.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    There are lots of things in these arts that you won't find outside Japan, in videos on youtube, or forums. That is the nature of the beast. Having said that, there are a wealth of attacks besides oitsuki like dunc pointed out to you, and plenty of different kicks, throws, chokes, locks, weapons, etc. You might be better off watching all the videos you can find of the actual kata from the ryu, also videos of the Jinenkan and Genbukan, instead of buying what you heard or read. I was told we didn't have sidekicks, reverse punches, and a slew of other things when I started training.

    Best to investigate for yourself while taking what you hear with a grain of salt.

    As for sparring, no matter how you do it in whatever art you practice, it will look different depending on the two people and their teacher's take on things and what they are drilling at the time. However, you should be able to practice and see the people trying to apply certain principles, techniques, and ideas in their movement or else it isn't very useful as a drill.
     
  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    In sparring? That's not the strategy we follow though.
     
  16. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  17. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    I liked the henka in that actually. To my memory we used the ura maewashi geri in some applications.
    I'd think even if it isn't formally taught in many dojo, it would be informally. It was in mine. I think it isn't so much in the move as application.
     
  18. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Ya that looks like a decent kick to me. Its not that far off line from what i have been taught else where either.
     

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