Spanish Influence on FMAs

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Martial novice, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. Martial novice

    Martial novice Valued Member

    Thanks Mananandata - interesting to hear about other influences

    Ultimately? It doesn't matter a great deal, but I think 1) it's interesting, and 2) it may even be useful to see the historical root.

    On the interest side, despite the best efforts of the current UK government, I still think learning for learning's sake is good. Understanding the evolution of an art is intrisically interesting.

    I asked about Spanish because it's often referred to. However, I also found a discussion on another forum here . It's from about 2.5 years ago and Pat contributed extensively there too. The popularity of sword-fighting in both countries and use of terminology lends itself well to suggestions of crossover, though it seems the evidence is circumstancial at best for now.

    As I also study BJJ - I quite like the easy to spot and well documented changes in style from the bajillion different styles of Jujutsu, through Kano creating Judo, to his student taking it to Brazil and the Gracie's deciding to just roll around on the ground :D
    Sadly the development of FMA is not so clear cut (at least until well into 20th Century when Doces Pares etc. seems well recorded)

    As for how it could be useful - it wasn't very long ago that a large number of people agreed with the idea that all martial arts originated in the Shaolin Temple, following the arrival and teachings of an Indian Buddhist Monk. I sounds crazy to rational thinking that until it spread from China, there was no form of combat, no closed fist punching, no wrestling anyone or anything to the ground, but it was widely believed (and some still try to suggest it :confused:)

    So I was just trying to eek out any info people have on the subject.

    One point I would definitely like to clarify:
    This evening's hunting through websites on this I stumbled across a reference on a white supremacy website :)() to the idea that it's ok for scum like them to learn FMA because it's not just an eastern art, it has been 'civilised' by white people because of the Spanish influence.
    Having read that I can understand what reads as hostility in some of the replies to my question. I want to make VERY clear, that as a practitioner of the FMA, I respect the Art and the culture that goes with it. I agree with what Pat said early on that now, it is a Filipino art form. My academic interest was and is only in the exchange of ideas and I sincerely hope I have caused no offence.
     
  2. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I beg to differ on this one too, the use of two swords was on occasion taught to fighters.

    Both Achille Marozzo in 1536 and Giacomo di Grassi in 1570 are recorded to have taught the use of two swords, which was referred to by the Italians as Due Spade. Somewhat later, the English took up the use of duel swords.

    Duell or Double Sword fighting wasn't as common as Sword and Dagger (Espada Y Daga; Spada E Pugnale), but it was still known and taught in Europe in the 1500's.

    Now I am not saying that this is the basis for the Siniwali of the Nrothern Philippine Tribes of Luzon etc but it was in use in Europe around the time of Magellan's journeys.

    Also I too disagree with the influence of the Rapier on the FMA as the Rapier is not predominantly a battle feild sword, but more a gentlemans dueling weapon and self defence tool. But you cannot discount the more common European battle Feild Sword the Sabre and the Naval Cutlass which are more sturdy weapons.

    Not all the native Pinoys who manned the Garrisons and Gallions where mercinaries otherwise thats a whole lot of mercinaries that could if it wanted easily overthrow its masters. Many would be drawn from local villagers with a vested interest in defending their homes from the Moro raiders, and even the mercinaries would have to under go some training even if only in a small way.

    The learning of Spanish or Creole would be a nessesity in order to understand orders tactics being given by the Officers and no matter what country you come from, when you are standing side by side fighting a common enemy soilders, sailors and even mercinariers will excahnge ideas and skills in combat as they after all have to watch each others back, that is human nature, this interaction on the battlefeild will of course have cause and effect on how you develop your own personal fighting style whether you want it to or not.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  3. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Wow isnt it funny how these types of idiots can twist things to suit them, ask any white supremist if he thinks the Spanish is of white Airian Stock and I guess you can guess what they will say huh! These guys would not know what civilised is and they forget that people like the Siekh nation are actually Airian, fact, they are genetically classed as Airian. Also they come from the same regoin as Northern Europeans, e.g. the Caucuases hence they are also genetically known as Caucasion.. But you tell an idiot of a white supremasist that one and they will simply go Dooooh! Nooooo! You lie....

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  4. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Absolutley, nothing in this world is pure, the very fact that cultural interaction happens changes things and to think otherwise is foolish indeed.

    Only discussions, debates and research can show the truth and unfortunetly if people dont like the answers they should not ask the questions in the first place should they, but then why should we hide ourselves from the truth as denying something and totally discounting something only prolongs the agony.

    And it does not matter who gave what to whom, what does matter is who owns it now and thats the truth..

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  5. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    in some respects no it does not but in other respects yes it does...

    Does it matter that one nation persicuted another yes, should we hide ourselves from the fact no, the fact that it may have happened 100's of years ago is neither here nor there and the fact that those two nations may well be the best of allies now is not the point, the point is should we deny the fact that it happened in the first place and claim ignorance????

    Now thats an interesting one to ponder eh big fella....

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  6. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    He commented upon an observation from his personal experience,and said he didn't understand it.This was in relation to your comment (not to him)
    "I get the tone that maybe you have found SOME pnoys a little anti-spanish."

    He then spoke of the possible reasons for what he has observed,and asked "Your thoughts?" Asking for others opinions.His observations and possible reasons for same could also be applied to many other people(s) aside from the particular group/nationality he was speaking of.Some people find such behavior silly,that's their opinion.OK,he sometimes words things in a brusque fashion.We all have different writing styles.

    I fail to see why his post would cause a grudge in anyone causing them to target people.Who would be doing the targeting,Spanish folks 'cause they objected to someone saying they had Spanish ancestry? Would someone posting on MAP decrying Chinese teachers of CMAs who can't actually apply the systems they teach cause Chinese to be targeted by others? I doubt it,tho' that seems something more likely to tic someone off.

    If you're going to speak of "the powerful and the powerless" perhaps you should ask him of his knowledge of that in relation to some of his relatives.

    No,there's nothing wrong in being a tourist.I just disagree in referring to everyone in an area who's not native to it as being a tourist.

    Acting on a whim? Meaning a sudden notion or fancy? That's your opinion. Then again discussions on MAP aren't exactly a matter of life or death,so maybe in some sense you're right. The "tone" of my post was asking some logical questions,or questioning your apparent logic.I did not then comment on what he wrote,if you feel offended by what he wrote that's one thing but being offended by the subject matter...see #1 below

    My real "complaints" were 1) It seems by your logic no one can comment on any group they're not part of. 2) Your hypocrisy in stating both -"The pnoy identity issue has got nothing to do with anyone except pnoys." and -"Maybe if you are from the UK you might have some identity issues." If you didn't like the "tone" of my pointing out your fallacious logic and hypocrisy in #2 then don't be hypocritical.

    Unsure what the relevance was in your comment about the anthropologist.I won't deny that it has at times had negative impacts on people.Does this then mean that the study of cultures,one's own or another's is overall an inherently bad thing? There are also instances where it has directly awakened people into seeking to preserve their vanishing traditions, knowledge,and beliefs.
     
  7. invisi

    invisi Valued Member

    el medico...whats that mean, sounds spanish...i did a google search...the doctor?

    Let me be a doctor. (I am joking here) - I am a bit of a punk sometimes, but for a reason. I guess the british invented punk culture?

    You don't understand everything. I don't understand everything. But I understand somethings as you understand some things. We have different points of view.

    Let me throw something at you. Some people from working class backgrounds want to be like middle class. Some middle class people want to be working class. Some middle class people want to be upper class. Some working class want to go straight up to upper class. I am not sure about upper class people; they are a mystery. Sometimes people want to strive forward in society. They want to be and all the things that go with it. Thats what people do. A direction from bottom to up. Wanting to be something your not e.g. bettering yourself.

    The clue is...everyone has identity issues. That is my view.

    I am just interested why is pnoy r identity got to do with FMA. Why is it an issue? Why the interest? How does this relate to the techniques FMA? History is fine. Too much sounds like hijacking.

    Maybe I got your tone lost in translation.

    Solidarity in the FMA for all that practice it around the world. Really...

    Peace.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2011
  8. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    El Medico- one of my teachers called me that on occasion,so I used it here.

    I wasn't personally interested in the identity subject. Objected to the idea that someone can't discuss a certain subject unless they're part of the "group" that subject is about.That seemed to be the case here. I don't believe in "boundaries" as relates to subject matter.

    You didn't have to throw that at me,I get that.Not neccesarily an identity issue,tho' it can be for some.Some people in that example just want what they consider a better material life,some feel they need all the status symbols of same.

    I guess "tone" did get lost in translation.I had a humorous remark regarding "whim" I was gonna close that last post with but I didn't want you to take it the wrong way so I didn't put it in.

    Later.
     
  9. invisi

    invisi Valued Member

    Great.

    About boundaries. Sometimes boundaries get overstepped and there is conflict. Martial artists should understand this. It's like going out to the pub on a saturday night, you have a disagreement with someone and you act maybe to stop the situation from escalating, then you always got your last line of defence; your skills.

    I am glad about the UK society example i gave, i thought you could identify with it. You could go on studying that example and come to many different conclusions.
     
  10. tim_stl

    tim_stl Valued Member

    are you saying that filipino fighters never used european swords?

    so you are familiar with iberian double-sword methods then?


    tim
     
  11. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Iberian? Is that not what they call The Spanish and Portugese region? ;)
     
  12. Citom

    Citom Witless Wonder

    I read about the British Occupation of Manila from 1762 - 64 way back in Grade School in the Philippines. The British forces were never able to expand the territory they held beyond the City of Manila and port in Cavite.

    The British part in the revolt of Diego and Gabriela Silang in the Ilocos Provinces in the north of Luzon was also relatively minimal. The British promised help for Diego Silang's revolt that never materialised. Diego Silang was eventually assassinated by the Spanish, and his revolt was continued by his wife Gabriela, before she too was caught and executed.

    A more lasting influence of the British Occupation was the desertion of some Sepoy troops (soldiers of Indian origin) who settled in Cainta, Rizal.

    So the British Occupation lasted only two years, never extended outside Manila and Cavite, and did not reach what has been regarded as the hotbeds of Filipino Martial Arts, such as Cebu, Negros, and Northern Luzon (Pampanga, Ilocos and Pangasinan). What the British Occupation did do was shatter the myth of Spanish invulnerability, but this would not bear fruit until 130+ years later with the founding of the Katipunan and the Philippine Revolution of 1896.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2011
  13. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I would not call that a minor interaction and influence. There's an old saying here 'From little acorns big oak trees grow'.

    It may have taken 130 years but a weakness was shown and once the seed is planted and takes root.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2011
  14. Mananandata

    Mananandata Valued Member

    Sinawali means 'weaving'. Although 'weaving' is apparent while wielding two swords, Sinawali doesn't require the use of two swords. Its about 'weaving' motions and in these weaving motions that differentiate Sinawali from any European two-weapon methods.

    Exactly my point. There was no rapier and dagger techniques in FMA, no Estoque y Daga. The Espada y Daga of FMA has nothing to do with the European Espada y Daga.

    Those men are not conquered by superior outside force but by their inward belief that those white men were representatives of God. It only needs one white man to lead hundreds of killer mercenaries.

    They didn't need training, just instructions. Instructions about who to kill and who to spare.

    Maybe that's the reason why the majority of the Filipinos don't speak Spanish? Of course we learned from the conquistadores as much as they've learned from us.
     
  15. Mananandata

    Mananandata Valued Member

    Didn't say that. What I was saying was that the influence of the Spanish on FMA couldn't be more significant than the Chinese or Japanese.



    No I'm not. I don't even know that they have any sword methods.
     
  16. Citom

    Citom Witless Wonder

    Well, most historians would give more weight to things like the martyrdom of the three Filipino Priests, Jose Burgos, Mariano Gomez, and Jacinto Zamora at the hands of the Spaniards, and the Propaganda movement led by Jose Rizal, Marcelo del Pilar, and Graciano Lopez Jaena, as being the actual seed for the Katipunan and the Philippine Revolution.. but the memory of the Spanish defeat by the British could have served as shall we say, part of the fertilizer?

    What is interesting to me is what part the Filipino Martial arts played in the fighting techniques of the past revolts (Dagohoy in Bohol, Palaris in Pangasinan, and the Silangs in Ilocos) and in the Revolution against Spain. We see Bonifacio depicted as wielding a bolo, but was he an Arnisador / Eskrimador? The Pulahanes of Samar / Leyte are known to have practiced a form of Eskrima. Of course we all know of the Moros in Mindanao wielding their deadly krises and kampilans...

    My great-grandfather led the branch of the Katipunan that operated in Central Pangasinan and took part in the Battle of Dagupan, where Filipinos defeated the Spaniards. In his biography it was recorded that he taught his troops to wield the talibong but used the cane for training to avoid accidents. I would dearly love to rediscover the art he trained his troops in, for that is part of my family's heritage.
     
  17. Mananandata

    Mananandata Valued Member

    No it does not matter. Until people make it sound like we owe something to the Spanish.
     
  18. Mananandata

    Mananandata Valued Member

    Would you say that the British occupation of HongKong had an influence on their martial arts?:hat:
     
  19. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    on what basis do you come to that conclusion. Just because I agree the rapier would not be a battlefield weapon does not mean there would be no Espada Y Daga on the battlefield. Cutlass and sabre would be used in conjunction with a dagger too. It was no exclusive to the rapier.

    Double weapons have played a major role on the battlefield in Europe long before the Romans even invaded Britania. The Gual. Celts, Britons, Picts, Angles and Ibrerian ( all the same peoples by the way ) where well versed in a multitude of weapons skills
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    sorry but that would be military suicide on a battlefield. A comander needs trained men on a battlefield. He needs to know how the fight and who are his strongest and weakest troops. A certain amount of training has to be given to any troops under your control or all you end up with is absolute chaos which gives a higher chance of defeat.


    Best regards

    Pat
     

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