Spanish Influence on FMAs

Pat,

I respect your position in the FMA community in UK.

I checked your website out. I actually checked it out before. I am very impressed with the organisation and layout of your system.

Might check your system out later.

Please Pat...don't go on about national pride. In fact I do not revolve my life around national pride; fil or british. e.g. talk about national identity, seeing who the weak guys are. But I will argue a point if it seems ridiculous to me. This is just a heritage thing. I do get a bit defensive about certain things about my heritage; that might 'discolour' my relative people. I am sure you can understand that.

I didn't know about records going on not before 1800's. Thats interesting?

regards.

 

Invisi I have no problem with someone getting defensive with their side of a debate. After all a good debate all too often uncovers more interesting facts and research items that further enhance the knowledge of any given subject.

Unfortunetly I often find many people do let national pride cloud their view on a subject and this does blinker them hence I mentioned it. It did look a little like that from your posts as you seem to imply my posts where insulting? But if this is not the case then i apologise for thinking that it may be.

Again the problem lays with the lack of records so much research has to be done with what little evidence we have before us and with all historical findings a certain amount of assumptions have to be made.

When all other possibilities be they logical or illogical can be ruled out then what is left no matter how improbable it may seem must be the most obvious answer until such a time as this too can be ruled out. If you get my meaning?

Best regards

Pat

 

Well...I will go back to the example i used about a foreigner telling an englishman that his view of english history was more truthful than the englishmans view. Do you understand that? Would not the englishman feel a little intimidated? Its not nationalistic it is just...politically incorrect.

I appreciate your view. I was merely ridiculing irrelevant content in your posts that had nothing to do with spanish combat skills. Or maybe you over trying to give more flavour? I didn't get that impression. I just kept to the thread title.

I get the tone that maybe you have found SOME pnoys a little anti-spanish. Maybe some are, considering it was a...tyrannical regime. Maybe you can identify the political structure of the country and the extreme levels of poverty there. But spain left a legacy that is part of PI identity. To be fair, this happened a long, long time ago. I believe spain is overall not the same country it was then. They are a modern society. To be honest a lot of pnoys are not like that and politically both countries have close ties; which is bilateral and between them exclusively. I am sure you might find if you ever get an invite that most pnoys, kastilas and spanish will invite you to celebrate their culture perhaps. Viva la fiesta...

Pat I think I am done.

But your knowledge of history is interesting. You should start a thread about this part of history from this part of the world.

How about the KERAMBIT/KARAMBIT??? It looks a little 'Aztec' to me. There is a mexican influence in the PI. There are words in the dialects too that come from there too.

 

what is politically incorrect is having only a nationalistic view on history. Having been schooled in both Scotland and England I have experienced both sides of he British nationalist coin if you like where one side refuses to admit to the other that without each other nothing would be what it is today and both spouting credit for it all and the chance to belittle each other.

Politically incorrect is something I personally hate as it is used as a shield to hide behind when the truth hurts. What has happened has happened no matter what we want to believe and no matter how much we would like view it through our nationalistic Rose coloured glasses.

Political correctness is an excuse.

As fot the links between Mexico and it's tribal peoples and those of what we now call the Philippines. Absolutly it goes without saying as there would have been a lot of interaction between the two people foam the mid 1500's onwards.

Best regards

Pat

 

I was only ironing out some odd information in your posts. Not all of it. Some of it. As regard to the history.

I respect your knowledge and technique. I can see you are a passionate guy about FMA and its history.

Best regards.

Peace.

 

I've always found pinoys to work extra hard to let everyone know they had Spanish blood or spoke of it in reverent tones as if it was the holy grail of identity. Maybe it's different with expat Pinoys and migrant labor forces from the Philippines? I seem to remember even Filipino-Americans where I grew up took a lot of pride in having Spanish blood somewhere in their family tree or at least thought they did. Having always grown up very close to the Filipino community I was always a bit puzzled as why so many pinoys were so eager to be seen as being of Spanish descent.

Sometimes I thought it might be down to wanting to be part of something less poverty ridden and corrupt than the Philippines is (not that Spain is a shining example of that - which makes it even funnier) - so in way a bit of escapism. On a more cynical note I've often wondered if they didn't feel somewhat ashamed of being Filipino... as if somehow being Filipino with no Spanish blood somehow wasn't cosmopolitan enough.

Your thoughts?

 

Slipthejab...

I think you ask questions that have nothing to do with you.

I suspect you are not pnoy. You sound very suspect to me.

What I mean is you should just pause a moment listen to what you said. Maybe if you are from UK, you might have identity issues. For example what is the point to this thread?

Things about pnoy identity are not your concern. A pnoy first wouldn't post this type of question. It is nothing to do with you. You are a tourist, putting it bluntly.

I advise you do not go down this road...

FMA is fine.

 

Having started this thread, I'd actually be interested to hear genuine responses to Slip's question. Partly out of interest, and partly because I DO think it's relevant to understanding the role of identity in studying Martial Arts.

It's interesting to note that FMA is not the most popular style in the PI (not sure on numbers now, but I was reading about the 70s when Karate, Judo and Taekwondo were much more prevalent), and maybe those who do train FMA feel a duty to stand up for their country a bit more.

Finally, Slip doesn't need anyone to stand up for him here on MAP, but Invisi I invite you to look back at some of his posts, which include several self-videos. He's a well travelled guy who has lived for quite some time in various parts of Asia. As he's a Mod I don't believe he's stirring for the sake of it.

Interested to hear any views on it. Thanks

 

Now here we see A fine example of national pride clouding reason and judgement. The 'your a tourist' thing is something we can all use. Slipthejab gave you his observations and how he has perceived the pinoys he knows and has interacted with. Then you assume that because of his views he must be from the UK?

Is that telling me you think all those who are not pinoy are just mere tourist and if they have a view albeit not to your liking then they must be from the UK? Now who is being politically incorrect?

I myself have had a little more than a tourist interaction in the Philippines to say the least and to a certain degree I can see where Slipthejab is comming from. But hey from one tourist to another eh?

Then surely on that vein you too must be a tourist on the opinions and findings of people outside the Philippines? Maybe we should just discount any historical facts that have been discovered about the Philippines by none pinoys as after all they are but tourist too.

Always keep an open mind as you may be surprised as to what gems you may find.

Best regards

Pat

 

To all,

I will put it bluntly. I am a blunt person. Sometimes that is how i express myself. Thats me. I don't go out my way to disagree, there is a reason. I thik I am misunderstood.

The pnoy identity issue has got nothing to do with anyone except pnoys. I find it inappropriate for non pnoys to discuss this in public. If this was raised in retaliation for any inferrence to being a 'tourist'; then it had an negative outcome. If you weren't born there, if you weren't raised there, and you go to another country for some desire or want, then you are a tourist. That is what i meant by tourist. I respect that other people visiting the PI go for some other connection like FMA.

Slipjabs posting in my opinion was very poor. It expresses inferiority for one reason and on the other end superiority. Who originated FMA? This is deeply offensive and a low lack of respect.

It was just the history elaboration and fabrication, that i read and I felt needed to be challenged. I don't think it is fair to put down a challenge or an argument if it is sensible.

I respect Pat.

I didn't respect Slips first posting at all.

I think I will let this one die.

 

In regards to the paragraph beginning with "The pnoy identity..."-So does this mean any anthropologist or sociologist who is not part of a culture-(or for that matter a subculture in their own country)- is a "tourist" who should never publicly utter or write of their findings,impressions or conclusions about said culture/subculture?Whether such things could be seen as positive,negative,or neutral don't you feel the world would be a poorer place if that was followed? Not to mention that if they are incorrect they will never be corrected.

Or should people make sure only to speak/write of things which could only be considered "nice" by everyone?

Also,I live in a place with university students who come from all over the world and we don't consider them tourists.Same w/people from other countries working here temporarily.Foriegners and citizens of other regions of the country coming simply to travel and see the sights are tourists.

"Maybe if you are from the UK you might have some identity issues." When you say that aren't you implying something which according to your logic only UK folks should speak of in public? Remember, "The pnoy identity issue has got nothing to do with anyone except pnoys."

That is hypocrisy,sir.

 

El Medico. I could not have put it better myself. Well said.

 

Err Medico.

I will argue a point. The point is slips posting was an opening for discussion of pnoys identity. If you read this post carefully, i conclude he was ridiculing pnoys racial identity, which i find deeply offensive.

There is a difference when you bring in the concept of the powerful and the powerless. Superiority and inferiority. Apply this to Slips post and you should understand why. Perhaps Slip practices FMA, which furthers the offense. Do the math. That is the difference.

Maybe someone could read this thread or posting and find a grudge and target pnoys. This would be a disaster. I genuinely believe Slip respects pnoys as he sees them generally as good workers. This is appreciated. These people tend to come from very poor backgrounds, they are simple people,
who appreciate the opportunity to work, pay their tax and integrate with their host country peoples. They are low-profile, not regarded as trouble makers and welcome warmly people from other cultures into their lives.
I agree with this impression.

You don't have to be nice. You can be nice. Its up to you. If you want to argue a point, I give myself the right to argue back.

I have to say Pat was not offensive. I just argued with Pat that some of the points he made about the history seemed 'fantasised'. I think he is a passionate guy and FMA is his life? In fact I don't know about Pat's life but I am assuming that it is his life. Pat its got nothing to do with national pride.

I once heard that an anthropologist was once the cause of the diminishment of a tribe in the amazon. There is nothing wrong in being a tourist. Its a fact. I used to go on holidays to foreign countries, on a british passport and i regarded myself as a tourist. Loads of foreign tourists from around the
world come to the UK for a few weeks or days and return back to their country.

Medico It seems you are acting on a whim. You are complaining and justifiying innocence. That is what I read from the tone of your post. Then again here its all about peoples tone of expression. The devils in the detail.

What I am saying at the end of this is the respect for boundaries. The most important point to this post is the opening for discussion of pnoys identity which was offensive. I am upset at that post.

 

I won't give any credit to the Spanish more than I would to the Chinese, Japanese and Indo-Malays regarding martial influence on FMA.
Regarding Pinoy identity, you'll never understand how the Pinoy mind works unless you live there in the Philippines the most of your life.
I am also not one of those so many pinoys who were so eager to be seen as being of Spanish descent. I am the rule and not the exception.

 

I don't read anything offensive there. I read the experience of one person, a suggested explanation [Filipinos in USA may want to be seen as having part Spanish root. If they did it may have to do with the subsequent American imperialism - just an open thought for discussion], and then asking for comments.

I agree with El Medico that people should be able to discuss regardless of their origins, if that is their specialism.
At university I was taught about Britain by a New Zealander, about Russia by a Brit and about China by an Irishman. And they all knew their stuff. Would it have been any more reassuring to be told why Britain was crap from someone who was born here? I don't believe it would.

Plus I like to think we can all discuss such issues sensibly. I'm English, but can be aware of the Scottish relationship with England - defiant where it suits, but happy to be British on some issues. There are reasons behind the views and it is beneficial for them to be public.

You are right that a slanging match is bad. Nobody wants to hear someone else say their country is inferior for no reason, but discussion is healthy.

Really? Any more information on this?

Out of interest, at what point did the Japanese have the opportunity to interact in sword and stick fighting / training as much as the Spanish had during their 300 year relationship with the natives? If there is a genuine reason I'd be very interested to hear it. I would have thought that a occupation by a country famous for its swordfighting would be greater than a very closed country, but I'm very willing to be corrected.

MN

 

I totally understand where your comming from but just because you deny it does not make it go away or make it untrue.

Take me for instance, I am a Scot by birth with Welsh and Irish ancestry, I speak English with an English accent but see myself as a proud Scot and proud of a heratage that goes far further back than the English on these islands, basically I was here long before they where.

But to deny their influence would be arrogant of me to say the least in the same way that I would be arrogant to deny the influence of the Romans, The Germans, the French and the Danish had on my culture and who I am and how I think and act today.

Take a look at democracy for instance as we know it now, not the Greek version where only the ruling classes vote each other in but where the people have the right to choose a new leader if they are disatified with the one they have, that is something that is even prominent in the Philippine Culture today and something that is owed to the Scots, for it is them that introduced this idea so they could pick Robert the Bruce as a new King as the Balial family where by birth the rightfull heirs to the Scottish thrown.

You can deny the influence that the Chinese, Malay, Indonesian, Spanish, Portugese and American ( visa Norhtern European / British ) culture has had on the Philippines but whether or not you like it, it is there be it good or bad.

Any interaction with another culture be it good or bad will change you and the way you do things whether you like it or not, you can deny it but it does not mean it has not happened.

The fact that some may say the Spanish had nothing but bad things to give the Philippines in its self changes you and what you do even if it is to remove all things Spanish from your life.

That would also be like denying England has never influenced the Philippines yet denying it speaking English????

you can try to hide the past you can even deny the past but you cant change what has already been done. Can you???

If you wish to deny your Spanish roots totally you first have to start by changing the name of your country and then the surnames of a vast majority of the population, after all a name is a reflection of who you are is it not?

I am all for national pride, I firmly beleive you should be proud of your history be it good or bad as it is what makes you as a nation and I firmly beleive that if you are not proud of your heretage and the country you are from and the country you reside in for that matter, then the simple solution is have nothing to do with it including leaving for if you are not proud of who you are and where you are from then you are in the wrong place.

Just my toughts

Best regards

Pat

 

This is true but he inadvertantly dimished the tribe out of pure curiosity. He traveled to meet this tribe that had never had any interaction outside their own neighbouring tribes and they certainly had no interaction with the western world.

Once they where discovered the western world wanted to find out more about them and more and more visits went to the tribe this interaction also made the tribe curious as to these new visitors and they too wanted to find out more, disease killed many as they where not amune to some of the common infections we have like the common cold and others wanted to do things more like their new visitors hence the tribe was lost forever.

It is for this reason that what is considered the last remaining tribe in the Amazon that has had no interaction from the outside world has now been protected and everyone has been told to stay well away from them.

Are we right to leave them well alone? More than likely yes. Or are we denying them something that would benefit them as individuals? Who knows???

But once the interaction has been made there is no turning back be it good or bad and there is no denying that it has happened and it has changed everyone concerened.

I am pretty sure the Spanish culture was just as much influenced by there interaction with the Indio's of the islands that are now called the Philippines.

Remember there was no such country as the Philippines before the Spanish invasion but rather a group of islands that was home to thousands of countries. In the same way there was no such country as England before and shortly after the Roman invasion, there was a group of smaller countries occupying some small islands off the coast of mainland Europe, as a matter of fact there was no such nation as Great Britian until James the VI of Scotland who also became James the I of England, Ireland and Wales united the islands of Britiania as one nation.

Interaction is a funny thing be it good or bad it influences all around it in more ways than people dare to realise... I could give and example of how the Hewbrews and Egypt and a Princess from the 10 lost tribes of Isreal became a major influnce that gave birth to countries such as Ireland, Scotland and Spain. But thats a whole different matter or is it bearing in mind the Spanish occupation of the Philippines and the religion the vast majority of the country follow????

Best regards

Pat

 

There was no record of the Spanish training the Filipinos, ever. They employed Filipino mercenaries who already know how to fight. They did not picked up common natives and then trained them on Spanish swordsmanship.
The Japanese and the Chinese have always lived with the natives hundreds of years before Magellan discovered the Philippines.
The Japanese Katana has been the staple sword of the Filipino swordfighters from the North during the Spanish occupation and even today. Andres Bonifacio even imported a shipload of katanas for his men. The Filipinos' employment and familiarity of the Japanese sword katana create a deeper connection to the Japanese swordsmanship than with the European's swords e.g. Rapier, which the Filipino fighters never used.

 

I'm not denying any possible influence from the Spaniards but I won't put any emphasis on it much greater than the influences acquired from the Chinese, Japanese, and Indo-Malays, (also; Portuguese, Italian, Americans and British.)

I am a Filipino and proud who I am but I'm not an advocate of selective history. I want to give credit whom/where credit is due. Why play-up Spanish influence on FMA and down-play the others'? Sinawali which is a major part of most if not all FMA styles is non-existent in Spanish or any European sword methods. It looks more Chinese than Spanish but this fact has always been eclipsed by the less significant use of numbering system, uniform, and FMA jargons all attributed to the Spanish influence.

 

Very nicely put Mananandata. Ultimately, does it really matter who influenced what...when...why...where...how?