Spanish Influence on FMAs

The Spanish had to build garrisons on many of the islands to combat the Moro raiders who would sail up through the costal areas of the numerous islands and raid the costal villages.

Not having the man power and resources ( Mexico and other South American regions had priority ) these garrisons where man by the local Indio's ( Filipino at that time refered to Spanish inhabitants of the islands ).

Now in later years ( late 18th and 19th Centuary ) guns would be more common as the where more reliable unlike in earlier years where the musket would fire just one shot and powder in the humid climate would quickly get damp and not work.

So it would make sence that the Spanish who run the garrisons would train the local malitia in the hand to hand fighting skills as most battles after a volley of gun fire would end up hand to hand.

Now as most Spaniards in the Philippines where mariners and the little troops they had would be marines they hand to hand weapons would be the naval cutlass and dagger. The cutlas being a shorter sword which was more practical on board a ship. Here you can see the relationship between the use of the cutlass and such blades as the pinuti.

Now obviuosly the local tribesmen had there own fighting skills which they would intermingle with the skills given to them by there Spanish trainers.

Also with over 111 different languages it would make sence that they be taught in Spannish. The numbering system of strikes etc is very much European and very much military in its approach. You can visit the Royal Amouries in Leeds England and watch an old British Cavalry training film from the early 1900's that shows the striking patterns and numbering system akin to what we see in FMA today.

The use of sticks as a substitute for the sword in training is also very common amongst European arts. Take a look at the English Cudgel for instance.

The triangle or X footwork patterns is again very common in European blade based arts. To say European fencing is linier is wrong as you are only looking at sport fencing which is an offshoot of real sword play and is not battlefield based. Where as originals European sword play is by no mean linier.

So yes there is Spanish influence in FMA and to think otherwise is quite naieve.

Best regards

Pat

 

Also from the mid 1500's the Philippines was a staging post for the spice and silk trade of Spain where many of the Spanish Gallions would stop on route to and from Latin America trading the gold for spice and silk. Cebu at one point was a district of Mexico.

Many if the Mariners aboard these Gallions where the Indio's of the Philippines. Something that is much in evidence today. There are not many private ships around today that do not have Punoy mariners on boards

Now these seamen would also be trained in the use of the cutlass and dagger so they could defend their gallions against the English, French, Chinese etc Priviteers ( Pirates ). They would have to learn to take instruction in Spanish and would be trained in the fighting skills to defend the ship should the be boarded.

Those skills would be brought home and taught to their families and incorporated into their own fighting skills and what we see today is an amalgamation of the indigenous fighting skills and Spanish military and mariner training.

But it is now uniquely FMA as it is now their own.

Best regards

Pat

 

Informative and interesting posts Pat

 

Very interesting and informative; even though there was a lot of irrelevant stuff, that had nothing to do with spanish fighting influencing FMA. More stuff on the spanish colonial occupation of the archipelago. IMO modern FMA occured during the American occupation, when it was a US commonwealth. I'm just thinking if you check the dates of the various schools. Maybe during this period, there was more creative space and the masters could think more and organise the art.

FMA is not militarilistic it is 'soul'. From the people. The spirit of the people; in a history of uprisings, revolutions and war. It is not rigid, it is fluid and rhythmic and dynamic.

Freinds are friends period. Freinds with a passion and love back.

But somethings just don't belong to other people.

 

Western boxing both before and during the era of Sullivan was predominantly exemplified by swings and hooks,not vertical chain punching.The guard also was usually held w/an extended front arm,unlike any FMA practices I've seen or experienced.Boxers didn't have to concern themselves w/limb destructions that much.Read descriptions of prizefights from those times and look at the photos/drawings/paintings.

I remember Guro Inosanto crediting the close in guard of boxing to FMA practices,did he actually state what you have related in regards to punching during the period before Sullivan,or was there an error in your wording?Or did you simply mean he meant there were more straight shots being utilized as a result of FMA influence?

 

The Spanish influence on what we now know as FMA and Spanish colonialism go hand in hand and therefor not irrelevant. But yes I agree the American colonial period was another important factor in the development of a more organised FMA as the people holding these fighting skills could now teach openly without fear of being labeled a revolutionary by their Spanish rulers.

On that note we also have to consider the British period of rule too as Britain did rule the Philippines all be it for a short period. Before the British rule there was very little in the way of major revolutionaries on the islands. But once the British gave the islands back to the Spanish the revolutionary period began.

It is believed that the British planted the seed of revolution in the native islanders and some believe that some fighting skills where passed on as Britain had a long history of conflict with the Spanish and knew how to fight them. So maybe we also have to consider the British blade fighting methods and how it is trained. It is even believed that some Britons stayed to insight revolution after the return of the Spanish. Which would make sence as the East India Trading company and other British priviteers would benefit in trading more in the region if the Spanish had numerous up risings to deal with and what better way to annoy an old enemy.

All of these counts will play some role
In the development of FMA even if only in a small way.

Now in an early post there is mention that we have to thank the Americans in that they brought boxing and the now Filipino's adapted and changed the fighting style of boxing. I put it that we should actually thank the Filipino's for what we now know as boxing. Yes America brought English Boxing but its change in that time is due to Filipino's.

So here we can see a two way influence. Spanish / European influence on the blade and warfare fighting skills and the Filipino influence on English Boxing.

Best regards

Pat

 

Not disputing the influence on boxing at all,Pat.Just the time period,hence my question about the wording.

Apologies to invisi if I misunderstood.

 

LOL

Sorry Pat,

IMO the British had very little influence on the fighting skills of the indigenous people. I think you are fantasising too much. LOL.

I think you are playing a 'kaotaowing' game; which is a little offensive. Filipinos owe something to the British??? The revolution was from the people not from the British. Check the Katipunan (a crowd of educated men and women; politics, arts, science, etc.) Rizal's novels. I would be interested if you could find a reference where the british incited or supported in any way revolutionary activity. I think you are fantasising again. It was General Aguinaldo of the Revolutionary forces that sought and won help from the US. Maybe he did visit the British. Maybe they were waiting like wolves to get in before the US?

It is also weak to say that the british blade style influenced FMA development. They were there for a short time only; and they had their own troops, why would they train local people. As militia? I think you are fantasising again.

A relation used to say, the PI would of been a better country if the british had ruled e.g. the concept of fair play and cricket. But what's that when you drill deeper? Same thing. Lighter domination.

 

You keep referring back to the revolutionary period of the late 19th Centuary but seem to have a total disregard to periods before that.

Fantasising about British influence? Ok so shall we totally discount the exploits of one of the Philippines most revered revolutionaries Gabriella Silang and the fact that her husband was executed for collaborating with the British in order to expel the Spanish during the 7 years war?

I think you also need to read up more on the Katipunan as you will find at one point the revolutionaries even considered inviting the British to get involved but this was later discounted.

The only thing that is insulting here is to totally disregard any outside influence of the FMA and to state that it is not a military based fighting skill is just ignorant. Look at the weapons and the format of training. Yes like most battlefield arts it has over recent years developed into a form of self defence as it in it's self is inadequate for today's battlefield as is all other martial arts systems on their own.

Don't just look at the late 19th century as a reference point. You need to look much further back and follow the time line to the present day and I think you will find that the FMA we see today has many outside influences.

So no not fantasising just being a bit more realistic and not being clouded by nationalistic pride.

Best regards

Pat

 

Yes the british may as you say have very little influence on the FMA but a little influence is influence. For is the Spanish influenced the FMA then indirectly with their years of conflict and their counter measures over the centuries to counter each others sword play would mean that even in a small way he British would play a part in the development of Spanish sword play which in turn would play a part in the sword play of the FMA.

Just as the Filipino may have influenced ENGLISH Boxing all be it in. small way it would be ignorant to ignore it would it not? Surely I should let national
Pride cloud my view?

 

LOL!

I am a little offended. It's like a foreigner telling an englishman in a very arrogant manner about his history! I am aware of the facts in your last posting. Well vaguely remembered.

I still think you are living in cloud cuckoo land. The reason for my argument here is iI believe that your historical view that you are proprogating might be a little innaccurate. A romantic bias.

The thread is about The Spanish Influence of FMA. That is combat techniques e.g. the cincotero, espada y daga, etc.

But you make a valid point that Spanish sword skills might of been influenced by english sword skills, and the other way around. European sword skills. I can understand that. But I would say that the greater majority of any european sword skills taught to the locals, was taught by Spaniards. The spanish recruited locals into the police and army; and were thus taught by them combat skills, maybe integrated with local skills. The spanish were the adiministrators, but also the mexicans as agent.

I introduced the USA too; because they have a great influence on phil society. The military had a big impact there.

I will give you credit, you know a little bit about this part of history. I take it you are an FMA practioner/instructor and you have trained in the PI and have friends there? Good for you.

I can see you are trying to make a connection between the english fighting styles and FMA. I just think a spaniard would have more commonality and connection to that than the english; but both maybe have a european commonality?

 

Pat,

Thank you for your Posts - exactly the kind of thing I was after when starting this thread. The earlier replies have led me to look at histories of PI and Spain more closely (ok, mostly wiki, but it's a start - lots of stuff I never knew).

And yes, I do think the bulk of your Posts has been entirely relevant and makes good sense.

There is already a lot of mention of Spanish influence on FMAs. To simply discount that I think is wrong, as it has not been concocted for no reason. What I have having trouble with was understanding WHY Spaniards would teach and what opportunity there would be. I was also only considering the revolutionary (and early conquest era) when there would be no incentive to teach the natives any fighting skills.

And also interesting to consider the American era as well - especially sports focus on boxing and fencing. Clearly much cross-over, as with most good MAs, evolving, incorporating what works, but keeping a certain flavour that distinguishes them.

Also just wanted to mention the English Singlestick which was popular as a training tool long before the British era at Manila, and was used by various navies, so yes, all sorts of potential to trade little tips and influence each other.

 

I'm no trying to make an English connection at all just pointing out that even a small influence is influence and yes I firmly believe that the Spanish have had a major influence on the FMA.

OH and just for the record I'm not English

Best regards.

Pat.

 

Mr O'Malley

You are a scholar! It shows you are knowledgeable have done a lot of research.

Your not english but you are british? I take it you have Irish ancestery? from your surname. Guessing. I hope i am assuming carefully.

Dr Jose Rizal, the fil revolutionary hero, one of his lovers was an Irish women! She fought in the independance revolution too. Jospehine Stracken. Now there is an irish-fil connection!

Hmmmm...

 

Half CAT!

What's new Pussy Pat...Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!

 

Stracken is a Scottish name but the Scots and Irish are the same people but actually her name was Josaphine Bracken which is a not so common Irish name that only a few people have.

I am of Scottish birth with Irish ancestry and guess what? I married a young woman called Lucy Bracken. Strange coincidence eh!

Best regards

Pat

 

Whoof????

 

Woww!!! thats pretty strange and significant!

What was it i said about a fil-irish connection! Sounds lucky!

nice one.

 

The old DOG has spoken!

 

If you are honest with yourself and you put aside national pride you cannot truly believe that the Spanish did not heavily influence the FMA.

After more than 300 years of occupation building garrisons and manning them with local tribesmen of the area they would have had to have been trained in the methods and tactics of the commanders of the garrison otherwise chaos would ensue when the battle begins. The same would be said of the indio's that manned many of the Spanish Gallions.

National pride is all well and good but a lot of the time it can and does cloud the truth.

The numbering system. The footwork. The transition of weapons and empty hand tactics the terminology is all very European and bears little resemblance to any of their neighbouring South East Asian martial arts systems and how they are taught.

The problem here is that the earliest records of the earliest FMA Masters only goes as far back as the late 1800's many of whom actually served time
In the Spanish Garrisons. That in it's self gives you a clue to their prowess and skills with stick and blade.

Best regards

Pat

Best regards

Pat.