Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Martial novice, Feb 15, 2011.
Can you explain further the difference between BZ and GM Ilustrisimo's Lutang?
La Destreza and the Spanish Friars
I see your point. Does anyone know here, if "Cuatro Canto" or other Spanish FMA terms pop up in manuscripts like Jeromino Carranza's or Luis Pacheco's written works on Destreza?
The only way to know for sure is figure out what Catholic priests like Father Pedro Agustin, Father Julian Bermejo and Father Angel Maestro used, whether or not they were the source of terminologies and techniques like "Cuatro Canto". It would be interesting to see any further work on this particular subject.
not that i have seen. basic fma terminology doesn't exist in historical spanish fencing, and basic historical spanish fencing terminology doesn't exist in fma, with a few exceptions that don't apply to the same movement or concept.
Oh, nothing to explain really. It was just an observation about form, of how 'lutang' is done by GM Ilustrisimo, the Garroteros and BZ . It seems to me that GM Ilustrisimo executes the 'lutang' naturally and without thought. On the other hand, the Garroteros and BZ do the 'lutang' in somewhat thoughtful and stylized way.
I see. So you're just pointing out the mastery of this particular technique.
Vulgar y Común Esgrima
I was wondering which manuscripts you've gone through. It looks like the oldest of these written fencing manuals date as far back as the 1530s with books like, “Tratado de Esgrima con Figuras” by Francisco Román. [Magellan arrived in Cebu around 1520s and Legazpi came back around 1560s]
Were there similar treatises written exclusively by Catholic priests?
Also, could the terms used by the "Vulgar y Común Esgrima" have been different from those used by the more refined Esgrima (True/Scientific) which was more widely written of?
*I'm no expert on Spanish fencing and its history. :google:
i've gone through nearly all of pacheco's, about half of carranza's, cruzado, tamariz, mendoza, parts of ettenhard, and bits and pieces of rada. roman's treatise hasn't been found, and we're not sure what the name actually is. it's not the oldest, the oldest from iberia is from 1474 (either pons or de la torre). so far as i know, no iberian treatises were written by priests. the terminology used in esgrima comun was different from that used in la verdadera destreza, but some of the very fundamental terminology was the same.
(i'm no expert either, but i've done quite a bit of research.)
Good stuff, tim.
Can you recommend some reading materials specifically on esgrima comun?
Also, on a different note, you guys are doing some work in Venezuela, right? Have you guys already come in contact with the juego garrote fighters and compared notes (specific to this thread, on terminologies comparison)?
unfortunately, no. there's very little out there, and part of my ongoing research involves cross-referencing newly-found material with existing references by verdadera destreza authors such as carranza, pacheco, tamariz, cruzado, and rada. if you can handle reading him, pacheco gives the most thorough descriptions in "grandezas de la espada" and "neuva ciencia." cruzado's "treinta tretas" is a bit more modern, so generally easier to read. all those works, though, don't tell the whole story, as the fundamentals are missing, and many of the techniques described are just bad fencing. the destreza authors, pacheco especially, had a very dim view of common fencing, and lumped anything that didn't fit his destreza as 'common' and 'false.'
i haven't had any contact with the venezuelans, but i know people who have. garrote doesn't much interest me.
Moro-Moro plays and Garrote
Sadly, my Spanish is very limited, I'll have to rely on indirect studies on this. Although there are some translated manuscripts already available giving the lay readers a glimpse of the above (although mostly done by European fencers, no FMAer yet). Are you planning on publishing any of your research?
I'm curious why the non-interest in garrote, tim. I know you're leaning towards Spanish influence through the Moro-Moro plays, garrote looks to me more a dance than anything. I'm really interested on your take on this.
i don't know about publishing, but either way the first few bits of my research (strictly on 16th-18th century iberian fencing, no fma connection) will be out later this year. i'll pm you about the rest.
personally, i dislike the way they move. it doesn't interest me, and it doesn't seem to mirror anything i know of in spanish fencing.
...cuatro cantos means you have to portray you role in 4th dimension.:Angel: and lulutang ka if you drink a lot...
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