Spanish Influence on FMAs

Citom, Thanks for the vid. I think the idea that there are only so many ways a human can move is an important one, because it can be used on both sides of the argument. Firstly, similarity can be explained partly by people finding the same movements. But on the other hand, if there are only so many ways to move, then arriving at a different method of doing something is even more surprising.

Take that Krabi Krabong video. Even my not very observant eye can see two big feautures worth noting. First is that compared with Ringsport Muay Thai, the exponents fight in left and right lead stances, as encouraged in FMA - this can be down to using weapons and the greater need for fast movement, rather than e.g. step and slide. The second is that the Krabi Krabong players almost never strike from the 'closed' position. The sinawali seen in so many FMA styles promotes a constant flow that means striking from open to closed and then back again. The KK vid shows more of a boxing style of 'this is my left weapon, it stays left, and right stays right'. In terms of weapon use that is a huge difference. There will undoubtedly be finer points to note, but that in itself seems indicative of a lack of crossover. If one works better than the other, after a while you might expect the other to incorporate it.

 

That's possibly the single most important point made on this thread. It applies to influence on the FMA from other sources, and the influence of FMA on others. It applies to the technique, the method, the linguistics, everything.

I salute you. :Angel:

 

Number 1 to me is the most important which is about striking, I call it The Lead. Number 2 is also important and it is about defense, I call it Double Lead. Number 3 is about positioning, I call it Rounding Up. Number 4 is about training, I call it, The Simple. It becomes more abstract as it goes up to 12. And yes, its all about CONTROL.
You got your last question in reverse. It should be, "Did Spain import modern mathematical concepts that might of influenced Spanish sword methods?"

 

He's trying not to offend the delicate sensibilities of martial artists posting on this forum. Remember, The Bear is watching!:ban:

 

Oops...I forgot my walking boots.

See sequences with the structure. Better still something Picasso might of painted.

12 segments its like a clock, a case of ordinality, but it seems there's cardinality. Every revolution goes from 1 to 12, but what happens when you arrive and get stuck at 12? Go back to 4, because there are 12 points of a clock and 3 points of the triangle, there's always a hand down. Deconstruct the structure, and play it around, give some time to thought, while the thoughts cook it off.

I think i decoded and found a message. And a point about the question. Maybe not everyone is interested. Just having fun with this one.

I am going 'hobo'ing now, i think i got everything. I thought I'd leave the blanked behind if anyone needs it. The one with famous cities of europe pattern on it.

P.S. - I love these sweet foods and more like; Polvoron, ensaymada, sans rival, leche flan. The spanish influence on fil cooking.

 

Spanish influence on Indios cooking is the Bomb! Paella! Wonder if that rice cake has Spanish influence too?

Just bumped onto this:
http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-Tired-Of-Filipinos-Who-Claim-They-Are-Spanish/334179

 

See you can tell their Pinoys. I was surprised it took so long to get round to the subject of food. Come on guys your slacking their a bit

 

On the Melodramic

Sorry to hear you leave, brother. You were the only logical/objective counter-point here (I will still respond to the rest of your posts though).

As for ad hominem, personal attacks, in my defense that is not what I'm doing. Raul X has stated himself that he is not in the argument. To quote Raul X:

He's just basically just here to throw Socratic questions, he possesses the truth by virtue of being Filipino, as implied. And that's the tone he's continued with. To each his own, I guess.

I'm not really attacking his argument by attacking his person, because he's not in the argument.

But I am ridiculing this thought and the ultimate revisions that comes with it:

Because of this sentiment, we lost so much of our FMA history in the 1960s to 1990s.

An emotional, irrational, childish, sentimental, melodramatic reaction when it comes to historical research is dangerous. This is what everyone's trying to point out. This needs to be ridiculed.

We'll miss your contribution, I'm sorry you feel the way you feel. I hope you'll be back. And good luck on your paper, I'm sure it'll kick-ass.

more to come...

 

I know what you mean. That dreaded syndrome. It's even worse when its forced upoun you; like they never want you to forget it. Jeez.

Ahaa!

I just see a 'friend' has come to dinner, wait I just have to add some cili to the paelo, I know my friends love the heat! this is about 40 years of eating hot curries. I adjust sometimes for friends! BTW adding cili to the dish is a bicolano variation, so i have been told, so this could be authentic. Extra-hot!!! for my friends!!!

I think this will be all. Hobongo cowabunga!!!

 

Good technical break down. Thanks!

 

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-Tired-Of-Filipinos-Who-Claim-They-Are-Spanish/1113616

Where in Sinawali practice resembles Spanish sword methods? Terminologies? Movements?

 

Well as has already been said, Spanish sword doesn't really exist in the same way it used to.
Interestingly though, I stumbled across this guy on youtube:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpdQFubPUo0&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpdQFubPUo0&feature=related[/ame]

The guy looking very severe at 0:19 is, according to another vid trying to revive Spanish fighting arts. He is presumably facing the same problems that most Western Martial Arts revivers are - using old manuals etc.
But while his long cane work looks very fencing orientated, if you told me the knife style was an FMA, I would have no problem believing you.

Just to address a quick aspect of the 'body only moves so many ways'. Here is another Youtube of Brazilian knife fighting:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-iNZX_WA14&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-iNZX_WA14&feature=related[/ame]

Brazil has an obvious Portuguese connection, but notice how in their training to avoid a knife strike, they weave the body out of range while the feet are planted. This is VERY different from the FMA principle of footwork, especially zoning triangles.

The FMA footwork, however, looks a lot like that Spanish knife video. Now the big question - if he is recereating the history, is it the Spanish style that influenced FMA, or is he maybe reviving the 'Spanish' style, which had already evolved with Filipino influence?

 

Lubas sa Dagang Bisaya

I am pretty sure there is a Cebuano (or Bisaya) word for Limpio, but all I can come up with besides Limpio is Hugas (wash) and Hinlo (organize/tidy). Just as the Tagalogs have "deep" Tagalog, there is also "deep" Cebuano, I'm afraid due to urbanization, Americanization, etc. "limpio" has become the favored verb. But I am confident the Cebuano word for "linis" is still being used in the boondocks.

I wonder if anyone did any sort of studies comparing the number of Spanish words present in both Cebuano and Tagalog, as well as other Filipino languages to see who has the most Spanish. I think it would be a toss up between Tagalog and Cebuano.

But if there are linguists out there interested in this kinda stuff, when in Cebu you should look up Lubas sa Dagang Bisaya, a Cebuano (Bisaya) language preservation society, once headed by Mr. Adelino Sitoy of Cordoba, Cebu.

We'd be really lucky if we found a smoking gun. We're not dealing in absolutes here, we're not dealing in laws. We're dealing with fragmented history, much of which is oral. If it was written, we would have some evidence of this in the writings of the Ilustrados, they were prolific writers and recorders of events. So much of the clues and evidence will be in language and movement.

We're dealing in degrees and probabilities (this is most likely true because... this is least likely true because... etc.). It would be asinine to keep asking for an absolute, a smoking gun, the ultimate proof.

Is there a list available of the Spanish terms and Filipino terms juxtaposed so we can examine the meanings, similarities and differences? So, we'd be able to come up with our own interpretations?

These different meanings you speak of, how different are they? Is it like the word Libang (Tagalog: to enjoy; Cebuano: to take a poop), where one could rationalize that taking a poop is in and of itself a form of enjoyment, thus the two can be related. OR is it like Langam, where in Tagalog it means ant and in Cebuano it means bird.

 

This is exactly why I was surprised a 2nd or 3rd generation Kalis Ilustrisimo student would say there would be more Chinese influence than Spanish in FMA.

From oral tradition, I think Lapunti was the fourth or fifth group, GM Chiuten tried to share his knowledge and techniques with, who eventually adopted them. Other groups, for a lack of better expression, basically told him to "go suck an egg" when he tried to share his Kung-Fu. This is a cultural fact, there is a Chinese and Filipino divide.

So not only are the Chinese terms absent, the movement/techniques are also absent.

Spanish and Filipino cross pollination, I'm all for it. You can say FMA (by and large) is 60% Spanish/40% Filipino OR 90% Filipino/10% Spanish. But when someone adds Chinese (or Japanese) as contributors, then I become somewhat suspicious because based on oral traditions, cultural affinity and readings, these old Manongs who brought us FMA (the ones born in the 1910s-1920s) were more suspicious of the Chinese and Japanese, than they were of the Spaniards. The Chinese, I guess, base on historical dealings, as well as current. And the Japanese, from WWII.

On that same note, we can't say 100% Filipino, just as we can't say 100% Spanish.

 

Since we all agree that there is a lack of documentation and much of this is oral, by default language becomes important (along with the movements/techniques, what else do you have?). You're right, there will be pitfalls as you've illustrated, there will be words that will throw us off, but we have to be able to focus and re-focus back from micro and macro. If the bigger picture suggests a certain narrative, then we'll see where that goes.

 

i think it may be more accurate to say that you can say it is 60% spanish/40% malay, or 90% malay/10% spanish, but it's definitely 100% filipino.


tim

 

I agree 100% Filipino irregardless of the influences that have transpired through the years. However, it has been influenced if nothing less than learning how to beat their enemies skills as well as incorporating what was useful. It has created a great melting pot of martial training!

 

Agreed!

 

...I think we are gifted with our natural ability.Maradjao Karadjao!

 

To put everything in perspective... Carl Sagan's "Earth: The Pale Blue Dot"

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDZWb9x8e9Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDZWb9x8e9Q[/ame]