Spanish Influence on FMAs

Regarding the reverend-

Welsh is Brythonic/P-Celtic.Gaelic is Goidelic/Q-Celtic.So in regards to the rev's work-No Irish (or Scots) need apply!

Not northern Europe.Central or East Central Europe.

Friend of mine has friends who have been in what is now Lebanon for at least several generations.Their DNA says they're....Korean.After all this time???

I'll exit this subject now.Sending a PM in the near future.

 

There is a lack of documentation, I admit. As a matter of fact, Ambeth Ocampo, the eminent historian, when questioned if Rizal was an Arnisador, replied, in essence "There is no evidence of that. Fencing and shooting, yes, but arnis, no".
However, Ambeth Ocampo is not a martial artist, and even if he has read all of Rizal's letters, writings and diary entries, there may be certain words, terms, and phrases that perhaps a martial artist would recognise. We know he was a fencer and a shooter. We even know that he studied jujutsu when he was in Japan. But no incontrovertible evidence that he practiced Arnis or Filipino Martial arts. But, as they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Maybe in some of the papers, such as the records he kept when he ran a school for boys during his exile in Dapitan, there is some clue or hint that he did practice and teach a Filipino martial art style.

Actually, Rizal spent more time living in London than the time he spent living in Hong Kong. Rizal was in London from May 1888 to March 1889. While in London, he did research at the Reading Room of the British Museum. A blue plaque now marks the house where Rizal stayed in London, on Chalcot Crescent, Primrose Hill, NW1:


Rizal's stay in Hong Kong was from December 1891 to June 1892, where he had a practice as an Ophthalmologist (not an orthodontist). He became an ophthalmologist to cure his mother's blindness. Josephine Bracken met Rizal in Hongkong and then travelled with her blind stepfather to Rizal's place of exile in Dapitan, to see if he could cure her father. His condition was inoperable, and Josephine and Rizal had fallen in love. She would not return with her stepfather to Hongkong but would stay with Rizal. This double whammy caused the stepfather to attempt suicide by slitting his throat with a razor, and only Rizal's timely intervention by restraining the old man (grappling technique??) prevented the stepfather from succeeding.

 

If you look back to my first post, it was a reply to slipthejab's first post. His impression of Pinoy. Here's his post:

So you see Pat, I don't want to change the past, obviously because its already done and gone. But I can change the future or the present impressions. I won't belong in that group of Pinoys. I refused to be categorized as such. That's why I posted this.

I don't mind giving credit to anybody who deserves it. I don't really care who influences who with what and why and how.
But when FMAers tend to single out this so-called Spanish influence, I simply wonder why. I don't need any answer to my question because I already know the answer. Those who are saying there's Spanish influence on FMA and feel there should be a special mention of it should start asking themselves, "Why the need?"

Spanish terminologies in FMA never bothered me or treated it as something that has some significant meaning., It never occurred to me that terminologies were in Spanish ergo they originated from the Spanish or directly influenced by the Spanish. And even if they were, so what? I never feel indebted to the Conquistadores to the point that I have to stress the Spanish contribution in FMA. Or feel that FMA is special because its terminologies were in Spanish and Spanish was the language of the Church and the Aristocracy which is pure BS of course.
I am not pushing any belief like there should be more credit given to the Chinese or the Japanese than the Spanish. Its your art, its your life, its your business. But I won't do it. I won't give any special credit to anybody.
Smarties should stop picking up my 'arguments' which I wasn't trying to push.
The thread is about Spanish influence on FMA, so stay with it. If you believe there is Spanish influence and you want to push it, then prove it . My challenge is not how the influence occurred but where. Where in FMA? Where is the influence? In the movements? On the mindset? Strategies? Tactics? Ethics? Training methodologies? Weapon principles? Fighting principles? Choice of weapons? Where? We already agreed that there was influence. Now show me, where is it.
Btw Pat, that's how my Spanish friends call me,"Raaaaa oooooollll !!!" We were even contemplating of migrating to Spain or at least visit it this year. Also, they are dying to learn my "KKKAAAAALI!!!!"

 

Well that is his theory and it can be tested just like the other theories. The same way we are testing and reformulating the theories I have advanced.
I have no problems with my theories being disproved if they don't fit the evidence.

Again, just a gentle reminder that the FMAs are not homogeneous but a collection of disparate systems and styles. But, I agree with this.

No, I'm not OK with it. I have a problem with ad hominem attacks being introduced into the discussion, regardless of who introduces it. Have I ever attacked anyone's character in any of my posts? Please don't feel singled out because I cited your post as an example.

Have a good weekend!

 

The use of number twelve was everywhere.
http://www.humanreligions.info/twelve.html

 

Actually, Tim it was from the exchange between you and Raul on fmaforum.org
If you will permit me to quote:

The thread can be found here: http://www.fmaforum.org/index.php?showtopic=5466

 

hahahaha! Excellent. KKKAAAAALI RAAAA OOOOOOLLLL. Has a catchiness to it.

Best regards

Pat

 

Also just to underscore. Even though some took offense to this post there isn't a single word in there meant as derogatory. I take pride in having lived in the Philippines and having Filipino friends. The entire reason I put these observations forward was because it's a phenomena that's always puzzled me. Coming from a Native American background in many ways Native Americans have similar issues of identity - particularly in relation to the Spanish.

I hope that people can realize that pointing out and issue is not pointing the finger at a group of people in an accusatory way or an attempt to slight. It's merely bringing it up for discussion as it's entirely relevant.

 

ah, i recall that. i was hoping someone else had done a scholarly comparison.


tim

 

So you remember that YOU were the one who's doing that comparison?

 

i don't think i understand your question. please elaborate.


tim

 

Your post:

 

i'm aware of what i wrote. what i don't understand is what you're asking. it seems a bit silly to ask if i know that i wrote it, since i already said i did. so, again, what are you asking?


tim

 

Me too! Love that, sounds Swiss! But my name can be traced to the Old English!

Heh.. that's hilarious! I'm just changing the names of the techniques that sound Spanish to Tagalog and English e.g. redonda to paikot/double zero, largo to layo/long range, medio to duol/medium range, corto to suod/short range. No big deal. So what's the fuzz?

I love your posts Pat! Gotcha!

Thank you for making me laugh Pat! I appreciate that!:bow1:

 

I noticed this and I am agreement on the above quote. There are TOS rules, and I am not sure how this issue relates to any of the TOS articles. I try my best to observe TOS rules; so far as I have been warned over a breech of it once. But I can respect people can get emotional sometimes; that goes for users and admin or everyone here.

To Manandata:

I was interjecting the numerology point to build a picture of a mathematical model of the FMA or what the different schools or disciplines share. There is a framework here. Exploring here.

12 points of attack, triangle footwork (triangle - 3 points), etc.

The relation between 12 and 3, maybe 4. Is 4 significant in FMA???

Pointless??? anyone interested to explore?

BTW my belief is mathematics is all about 'CONTROL'.

Did Spain import modern mathematical concepts that might of influenced FMA? That's my argument.

P.S. - The picture I am trying to create here is:

THE POWER OF THE TRIANGLE

 

I totally agree with you. Unless there's a race of humans out there with three arms and three legs, the movements will be limited to a certain set of movements.

But with that said, to me it doesn't look similar. I don't know if it's because of the skill level or just the style, but there is something here where I can see it's not FMA automatically. Maybe it's just my bias. I've just searched for other Krabi Krabong videos, and most look like this. Don't get me wrong, it looks seriously kick-ass, but not FMA.

There is a type of finesse (I don't know if this is the right word) in movement that is present in FMA, that I can also see in the Venezuelan videos Pat posted, but I don't see in Krabi Krabong. I can see FMA and the Venezuelan videos are related, but Krabi Krabong more of a cousin (not so distant, but less related).

Again, I'm no technical expert. So the purpose of this post is to see if I'm the only one who sees this, if not, what is it that I'm seeing that's making me conclude the above? If the more technical among us can chime in...

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. This is all I can write for now--more to come.

P.S.~ I was informed by a friend who knows Japanese and studies FMA that bara-bara is most likely not Japanese, but comes from the Spanish vara, a stick, so maybe bara-bara means stick to stick?

Bara-bara in Japanese means to mix up or confused, example: Raul vomited because he is bara-bara in the head.

 

That's a good question about Lapunti's retention of GM Chiuten kung-fu terms, I hope they didn't pull a "Raul" and changed GM Chiuten's kung-fu terms to Spanish or Cebuano. Out of respect to GM Chiuten, the kung-fu terms need to be preserved.

But my point was, regardless if the terms were changed or not, which is another issue which I call the "Raul" issue, is that you can tell that there was Chinese influence, because Chinese martial arts move a certain way.

Remember my stance is Filipino (whether Cebuano or Tagalog or Ilokano or Ilongo) and Spanish influence (or cross-polination as you've called it) is what happened.

The Chinese and Japanese influence, if there are any, is miniscule.

And if that miniscule bit of influence ever surfaced, I would hide it and change it. Why? Because my grandfather was oppressed by the Japanese; the Japanese raped his women and stole his dignity. During Japanese occupation, one of the Japanese soldiers flicked a slimy booger on my grandfather's face, causing him to vomit.

I have friends in Cebu today that work for Chinese owned businesses, and they are exploited like those little Indian kids from "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom". Many Chinese businessmen buy our women, and steal our dignity. When I was a kid, a Chinese businessman flicked a balled up booger on my face, causing me to vomit.

So I will fight any mention of Chinese or Japanese influence in my beloved FMAs. I'll vomit, until I can vomit no more.

More to come, sorry for the partial postings...

 

I will bow out of this discussion now, since the level of ad hominem attacks has not abated and I need to preserve my objectivity especially since I am writing a paper for submission to a peer reviewed journal right now. Call me balat-sibuyas, but that's just the way I am. I apologise for the long-windedness of my posts and thank all of you for tolerating me thus far.
Don't worry, I won't let the yantok hit my puwet on the way out..

Salamat a balbaleg

 

Onpoint,

I am gonna do some policing here.

Your beautiful. Warts and all. Just that some might be talking.

The 'R' word is a very powerful word. I know this word because I have experienced it not in the way that most would think or the standard definition that makes it a crime. When someone's identity becomes abused, or that it becomes someone elses business just purely for pleasure, when there is no claim to this. Foreign Identity Ownership -> Pleasure = sadism. There are other 'R' words too. Might be there a clue. I thought most people knew this even though it might come to SOME as a bit of a 'sucker punch'. The 'R's and 'T's (those seeking pleasure).

I think I am going to squat elsewhere for now.

 

jeez can you talk any more vaguely? seriously. :bang: