I Have been having some discussions with a friend who claims to be religious ( A very hypocritical Catholic) and he spouts the same old bs. Now for some questions. Is there any proof of Jesus existing other than the bible ? He claims that the Catholic rule regarding birth control isn't a sin just an implied tradition that not everyone has to follow. This guy is a know it all and if you try to disprove him he looks down on you like your stupid so discussions usually only last a few minutes.
So... if he's a dick about it why talk to him? Sounds like he isn't really open to re-evaluating his ideas, some people just get too dug into their own BS to accept other points of view as valid. It's sad and irritating as all get out but it happens. (I think it's how republicans are made)
I thought the existence of Jesus, son of Joseph of Nazareth was a matter of historical fact. I'm not gonna go looking for the evidence though, cos I don't care. That's not the Catholic Church's position, unless they've changed it recently. Then why be friends with him?
Well it usually comes up when drunk and playing poker, and if he gets all ****y he doesn't concentrate which means more money for me plus I just like argueing about religion.
Ask him what colour adam and eve were because if they were white then where did all the black people come from and the other way around to.
Lol to the question concerning historical documents of jesus. Apperently there are many writings to the existence of jesus. So many people have documented Jesus as a real person in various writings and letters and other official documentation, that the sheer number of times he's mentioned is sometimes called "more proof" than the number of writings that Julius Caesar was included in. Anyways it would be qutie difficult to start a religion without the central figure having existed for the teachings
Ranzan, good for you for not being gullible to religious baloney. I was going to try to avoid religious discussions on an internet forum for MA but being as you are getting grief from a religious person maybe I have some ideas to share. I babble a lot on this but you can take it in pieces and reads bits at at time decide what you like or don't like. Overall if you get the theme that is more important than the specific topics I posted in this response. The Bible doesn't prove Jesus existed. There is no evidence that Jesus existed. The argument that Bible is proof of God because God wrote the Bible is pointed out by non-believers very diligently as circular reasoning. If you google circular reasoning Bible Jesus you will have enough reading to last you for months or years. A lot of apologetic arguments revolve around using spin and mis-direction to frame the conversations the way they want to go combined with selective perception. The idea that Bible is proof that God exists is one such method. The only difference between a book of mythology and a book of religion is that the book of religion has people that believe it to be true. Understand that belief is an idea held in the absence of evidence. I am confident everybody has beliefs of somethings. For instance most people on this forum probably have faith that they have increased their fighting skills by studying marital arts. That remains a faith-based idea until such time it is tested by a physical conflict..and even than it is somewhat tested based on the type of conflict they experienced---Having faith isn't good or bad but it is mutually exclusive from having evidence. At the time one gains evidence...they can no longer have faith. Rather than letting him phrase questions for you two to argue over just ask him questions and than let him try to answer them without your input. Here are a few starters..good questions for Catholics that I have asked in the past: Ask him: 1) Which Bible? When he says "The Bible" ask "Which Bible" There are scores and scores of variations of the Bible. http://www.bibles.co.uk/kjv___nasb___ncv___cev____niv___nlt___nkjv___the_message_parallel_new_testament__hardback_2461.html Whatever answer he gives you ask him about 3-4 more different books and when they were written. Ask him why one holds validity over the other. The dirty secret with "the bible" is three fold a) Most of it was written hundreds of years after Jesus suspected existence. b) There is scores of Bible variations. There is lots of Bibles not "the Bible". c) There are many Bible stories not canonized ---voted not to exist by religious committees. My favorite reject Bible book is the Gospel of ST Thomas. There is also the gospel of Mary, the gospel Barnabas and dozens more that didn't make the cut. Being as he is Catholic his Pope makes up more baloney as he goes along called the Catholic Canon. The Canon is thousands and thousands of pages and nobody in reads --other than ordained Catholics . The purpose of telling you about the Canon is that it is ever-present proof--in the making--by his own church that the religion keeps updating, changing, morphing the religion ---and that the in light of the dozens of Bibles, dozen of books rejected from the Bible and constant updating by the churches like the Catholic church the idea of "the Bible" is meaningless. As a footnote their is three branches of Catholic churches. RCC, Eastern Orthodox and Greek. Those three can't even decide what a Catholic is or isn't. Part 2 Jesus and Krishna: Jesus is very likely adopted from the older Hindu Trinity with Krishna. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr.htm That is a pretty good link to start. It shows how they were both born of a virgin, destined to come back from to save the world , had apostles ect. Read up on that. Whatever question he asks you compare it to Krishna and ask why he thinks the Jesus story is right but not the Krishna story. Don't argue with him ..just ask questions. Part 3 Catholic morality: Catholic morality in short is an oxy-moron. Some of the things the Catholic Church has been involved in: 1) Pedophilia. These guys make the man-boy association look like light weights. If you dig long enough you can find one story per week for year in and year out for years of a Catholic sex story. You can find the stories, the cover-ups and the website that lists Catholic sex offenders http://www.bishop-accountability.org/ Bring up a few stories of pedophilia and the church using a different story each time that you google. Ask him why an all loving God would permit his holy men to behave like this. Whatever he says, don't answer the question just ask follow up questions. 2) WW 2 and genocide of the Jews: Hitler and the Nazi movement was strongly Catholic. http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catholic/NaziLeadership.html http://alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/photogallery.html EvilBible.com has one of the best structured statements on the Nazi/Catholic connection. http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm evilbible.com along with skeptics bible are some of the best resources you can find for bible thumpers. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ Much of Hitlers speeches were based on Martin Luther's book "On The Jews and Their Lies" http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm 3) Rwanda Genocide and the Catholics: http://www.afrol.com/Countries/Rwanda/backgr_cross_genocide.htm http://www.maykuth.com/Projects/rwan3.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7292081.stm I just listed three...you could dig for weeks or months and find stuff on this. The central idea I want to give to you is not to play his "let me frame what we will discuss" game but instead ask difficult questions and let him dig his own grave. When he provides answers he will help you find the next question to ask. :evil: As a foonote: A quick fun summary of Christianity I like "Kissing Hank's A$$" [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdCA5xAsw8I"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdCA5xAsw8I[/ame]
You are welcome. I hope you find a way to make my rambling applicable to your conversations with Catholic fella.
I actually think their probably was a historical Jesus but there certainly is not more evidence for his existence than Julius Caesar. The problem with sources about Jesus is that the vast majority appear long after his death and after a religious movement developed. To me this makes it likely that some guy was around doing something to spur on a religious movement but in terms of the details of the historical figure being accurate or the story surrounding him- I highly doubt it. Not so sure that's correct. Lot's of religious traditions have mythical central figures and appear to have developed from collections of teachings/and or practices which eventually become associated with a single figure or teacher (Lao Tzu in Taoism for instance).
Another question. What is the Catholic churches stance on evolution? Doing research into it I have found a slight acceptance to it but gods divine creation is still the main teaching.
Ha! the dinosaurs out date Christ ask him where they came from, there is some crap on the net about them being called dragons and in the bible the name dragon is referred to and all that but please pull the other one.
Doesn't matter which one your friend chooses because both answers for a Christian are wrong: 1) If he says "evolution is wrong" (or the more popular Christian phrase "evolution is a lie") you can point out evidence for evolution like 1) DNA 2) Selective breeding 3) genetic drift 4) fossil records edit: found a footnote: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/lines_01 2) If he says evolution is correct: evolution and the Genesis Adam and Eve story are mutually exclusive. Either we evolved from lower life forms or there was an instant of creation where humans came into existence. If he says the Adam and Eve story didn't happen than the "original sin" idea is bunk. If original sin is bunk than what was the reason that Jesus dies on the cross? Austin Cline does a good job of explaining it here: http://atheism.about.com/b/2007/06/...atholic-church-original-sin-and-evolution.htm
Oh yeah! how many species of animal are on the earth now? So Noah took two of each on his ark, that was one big ginormous mother of an ark.
