Some questions on the evolution of TaiChi Chuan

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by embra, May 3, 2009.

  1. embra

    embra Valued Member

    As someone relatively new to TaiChi Chuan(16 months), I am seeking to become slightly more educated on a few points, in order that I can make intelligent decisions about interpreting the teachings of TaiChi Chuan. I frequently have to trvel for work (or at least I did so until the present econoomic mess), and as such I have to make the most out of whoever and wherever I find to train.

    I do not wish to encourage a torrent of flamewars i.e. emphasis on education, rather than confrontation. I may be wrong on many of these points, but I am happy to be educated - I have no axes to grind with anyone.

    1) In general, TaiChi Chuan seems to have suffered from suppression during the Chinese Cultural Revolution. I find it somewhat difficult to trace lineage of TaiChi Chuan styles back to China.

    Chen Tin Hung's Wudang Tai Chi Chuan that I currently train in, seems to be of Yang lineage with a lot of Wu influences, but does not seem to exist in China, only in Hong Kong, Europe and to a lesser extent, the USA. On youtube you can find references to 'Wudang Taichi' - in China - which are definately not what I recognise as Wudang TaiChi Chuan or Practical taiChi Chuan. Some of it is Form based, but it may well be some Kung Fu Forms. Can anyone offer an explanation on this point?

    For those experienced in Yang/Wu/Wu Hao/Chen/Sun TaiChi Chuan, how do these styles relate to the existing roots and origins in contemporary China?

    The phenomena of cultural juxtopisition is not unique to China - I have seen extremly ardent Bagpipe and dancers with full Highland dress at work in Switzerland and Germany.

    In general, my perception is that the Chen style fared somewhat better than other styles under Communism and the Cultural Revolution.

    2) In the styles of Yang/Wu/Wu Hao/Chen/Sun TaiChi Chuan, what are the component parts beyond forms, and at what stage are they taught to students?

    In Wudang TaiChi Chuan, there seems to be a fair degree of self-defence applications and san-shou/basic boxing along with Forms, although there also seems to be some difference of emphasis from teacher to teacher.

    3) This question relates to QiGong a) independantly and b) as a component/adjunct of TaiChi Chuan.

    There seesm to be as many styles and complications of QiGong as there are with TaiChi chuan itself.

    I have practised the 8 Brocades of Silk exercises but I now use Japansese Misogi breathing (which I am familiar with from Aikido and it is less esoteric - at least to me); as a means to co-ordinating my breath and muscular energy, relaxation and temporary mind cleansing; as preparation for the physical tasks ahead of me when training.

    In my simplistic view Misogi brething serves the same purpose as QiGong and does not seem to be so stylistically controversial.

    I can be missing a whole lot here, but at this current point in time, QiGong and Din Yao seems like part of very esoteric and mystical belief system, with not a lot of apparrent benefit. Furthermore, I would find it extremly difficult to discern who would be knowledgable Practitioners of QiGong, in China or outside.

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    Any educative responses welcome.
     
  2. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Ok, lots of questions there.

    1/ Cheng Tin Hung is Wu style. He has as as much Yang influance as any Tai Chi. In fact, at one point he was the liniage 'head' of main stream Wu style after the 'grandmaster' died, but I don't think he ever accepted the title.

    The way in which Master CTH differs from Wu style (which he was taught by his uncle) is due to his other teacher Qi Min Xuan who filled in the martial gaps missing is Wu style.

    Now Qi Min Xuan was a shadowy figure and no (renegade soldier on the run) and as such not much can be found of his history, this had lead many people to theorise that he never existed and that CTH augmented Wu with martial applications from hard styles of kung fu (and that this is also where he got the nei ung from, which is absent in Wu).

    1.1/ Wudang is a generic term. Its the name of a place (a many peaked mountain) where Tai Chi is alleged to have been founded. CTH never gave his 'style a name (to quote Dan Docherty) but once refeered to it as Wudang.

    Most Wudang that you see on the internet is a later cash in attempt by the Chinese government and can really be discounted, in the same was as most things labled Shaolin can be discounted.




    The image of the Scott in Tartan and blowing bag pipe is a Victorian invention in the same way that the myth of chen village is a, well myth, built after the fact.



    Thats why DD calls his nei gung.
     
  3. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    #

    That's interesting - what makes you say that? I'm not saying it's not true - nothing would surprise me thesedays, but where were all those famous Chen teachers we know of born, if not in Sunshine Village? That's been the historical home of the Chen family for centuries - the guy I trained with learned taiji there from Chen Zheng Lei.

    Do you mean the whole village was completely invented and built by the PRC for commercial purposes after Chen taiji became popular? Because CZL and CXW are a lot older than that - so where were they born really?

    Or do you mean that there's been heavy investment in promoting it as a tourist destination? Which isn't the same as it being a myth built after the fact.

    As for learning from unknown masters,I think a lot of CMA masters who wanted to innovate in the past felt that people wouldn't take them seriously if there wasn't some kind of lineage the innovation came from, hence they said things like 'I learned it from a Taoist sage' kind of thing. I don't know - just a theory.
     
  4. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    http://www.chinesemartialarts.eu/HISTORY_OF_TAI_CHI_CHUAN.html
     
  5. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Right - I think I got confused by the word 'built' used with 'village' leading me to think that you were saying that Chen village itself had been 'built' after the popularity of Chen taiji flowered - much as Shaolin Temple was re-built.

    But what you're actually saying is that it's a myth that taiji originated in Chen village. Docherty appears to be saying that Chen masters don't really know taiji - not real taiji. Is that right?
     
  6. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Oh, man - I almost forgot to mention - just because Dan Docherty says something, that doesn't actually mean that it's true. Doesn't mean that it isn't true - true is true, no matter who says it - just means that it isn't true or proved just by him saying it. And it's kind of funny to argue about legends and things that can never be checked, not ever - all we have is the living evidence of Chen family members and their art - and Dan Docherty and his art.
     
  7. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    But its not just Dan 'saying' it. Its Dan presenting evidence. What you read into that is up to you.
    Talking of legends that cant be proven is ok, but the existence of a book giving the account of a visit to Chen village should be taken as primary evidence.
     
  8. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    What the book says is that some time ago, possibly in the mid 1800's, the Chen family martial art was radically altered by someone coming to the village. Actually, no - the book says that the author met 'the only educated person in the village' and this person related that story. So you saying it is at least fourth hand, and relating events that occured - or not - over a hundred and fifty-ish years ago. Some primary evidence, that, lol - wishful thinking mate.

    That's not primary evidence at all - that would be like saying The Bible is primary evidence for the events it describes.

    Isn't it true that there are two legends - one that what we know of as taiji was taught to the Chen's in the mid 1800's or thereabouts, and the other, that the Chen family had taiji type forms significantly earlier, possibly in the 1600's.

    Both are legends lost in time - neither really mean that Chen family isn't the most original taiji left, nor, as you stated, that there is a 'Chen village myth' created after the fact - what there is is Chen village, people practicing taiji there for a very, very long time - so far back that its origins in the village are shrouded in mystery and legend. The Chen family themselves, I suppose naturally, say that the early origin idea is correct.

    Yeah, it's pretty much just Dan Docherty's personal crusade of defamation of the Chen family and their style that you're promoting - I know, because I read him do it for twenty years in Combat magazine. I've no idea why he does that - you'd think they'd personally hurt him or something. Maybe he feels that they embarrass him - I don't know. But he sure hates them.

    Then I saw Dan do taiji, then I saw Chen Xiao Bin do taiji. I know which I believe is the real taiji, regardless of origin - but, you know, like you say, what we do with the information we get is up to us.

    So, I think we've pretty neatly dispensed with the idea that Chen village taiji was some kind of 'myth' built after the fact - even your 'primary source' places taiji practice there in the 1850's. Maybe you're accidnetally helping the Communist Government to undermine Chen village? Just a thought.
     
  9. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Ah- I have often wondered what it is that Dan had against Chen taiji - is it, although I don't see how this could be - but is it because his lineage doesn't descend from them? Therefore according to the old way of thinking it's not real taiji?

    Or - I dunno - I have often wondered just what his problem with them is.
     
  10. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    LOL seems this is very important to you.

    Fundamentally, we have evidence that in 1917 (before there was any cash in pretending otherwise) the Chen's believed that their family art was not TTC but was an off shoot of Shaolin, at least till 50 or so years before.

    If there are, as you say, two legends one it would seem has some evidence for it. For some reason this in not the one that gets promoted....odd that.


    And in terms or 'building' the myth at Chen village, there is at least evidence that grave stones pointed at as evidence or TTC's antiquity are recent, duplicitous additions.
     
  11. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Yeah, it is important to me. I don't have a hobby interest in Quan, Lio, it's something I'm passionate and serious about - as everyone should be, about the things they love.

    Having said that, I'm not as serious in terms of this issue as Dan Docherty - I mean, he really dislikes the Chen family - I just wonder if there's personal reasons for that, or professional reasons.

    There are, of course, two legends -more even - variations on legends - you should already know that. There isn't really any 'evidence' for the version you support - there's anecdotal evidence, which may or may not be true - the old guy in the village may not even have existed. What you would have to investigate is when and why the story started changing.

    And you have to use rational, moderate thought on some issues. If Dan says, as he does, that 'as everyone knows' taiji is closely related to taoism, therefore Buddhist names for moves mean that Chen taiji can't be real taiji... well, it could be the other way around too. For example, I've been saying for years that if taiji is taoist, why are there so many Buddhist names for moves?

    See? If you don't believe Chen taiji is real taiji, then it points to it not being. If you don't believe that taiji is particularly taoist, then it points to that as well - it's evidence that can suit either agenda.

    In reality, most people who do serious practice know that arts evolve, and can extrapolate from that that taiji evolved too - at some point it probably was Shaolin style, and then changed. When that happened is lost in time. But it was a long time ago.

    Dan's hate campaign against the Chen's is irrational and I think personal. And I also think it irrational that we 'reverse' truth - as Dan does with the Taoist thing, to make Chen style not taiji, and Dan's modern 'Wudang' club the real, ancient taiji. I think that defies rational logic.

    I'm not saying Dan's stuff isn't good or effective - just that, just because he has a higher emphasis on san da and wrestling doesn't make it 'more' taiji than Chen taiji, and doesn't make it anything to do with 'Wudang' - in fact, Dan's use of 'Wudang' is far more suspect than the Chen's use of taiji - and Dan's claims would be laughed out of China because they don't make any sense to the people who know most about it.


    As for the grave stones, the war heroes from WW1 on the news will also have new grave stones soon.

    Anyway, we'll never know, is the truth. You don't know, I don't know, CXL doesn't know, and Dan doesn't know what happened 150, 200, 500 years ago.
     
  12. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Thinking about it, there areplenty of things my teacher told me that I don't believe. I don't really believe in qi, for example, but he does, very seriously.

    I remember Zhao Dao Xin saying in an interview that he fought some Danish drunk in a Shanghai bar, but by the time that rumour had spread across China, it had become 'Chinese wushu hero defeats European boxing champion in death match' kind of thing- and that wasonly a year or so later, lol. In reality, he knocked out a fat, very drunken sailor with one punch.

    Stories from the past - who knows, really? I find it a little weird when every so often someone has a strange attack at the Chen's as if there's some kind of conspiracy going on, when, what would it really matter either way? However taiji came to Chen village? Why does Dan hate them?
     
  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    To be honest, I don't think anyone can claim to be the founder a martial art. Look at Aikido, Ueshiba is called the founder but almost everything he does is found in earlier arts. This would be the same for Tai Chi. I know Dan has done a considerable amount of research into the origins of Tai Chi, however, I think he allows his personality to shine
    alittle too strongly in this article. It's not the Chens he hates but the sheer mountain of lies and misinformation that surrounds Tai Chi and the fact that it is perpetuated by many who have a financial interest in doing so. But then he did buy me dinner recently so I can't be too objective myself where as those Chen's have never brought any food to The Bear. ;)

    The Bear.
     
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I bet he didn't fall short on getting the drinks in either - or did he bring his own bottle.. or two ?

    Wow, I'm feeling bitchy today!
     
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I was driving so it was the soda and limes for me that night. Though I didn't fancy anything on the wine list anyway. I am very picky when it comes to wine.

    The Bear.
     
  16. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned


    And yet you choose to put your faith in the dogma as handed down.
     
  17. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The Dan/Chen thing has usefully explained some older history, but essentially I am more interested in the recent past, the here and now, and where TCC will go in the future.

    Like, why did TCC get so neglected during the Cultural Revolution in China? There is a great diversity of CMA styles, but it is not readily apparrent how they relate to each other now. Does the contemporary Peoples Republic of China not wish to covet their arts like Japan does e.g. the National treasure status given to Katori Shinto Ryu?

    Some gaps in the Chen Tin Hing story were well explained.

    I would be interested to hear more about the components of the Chen style, what makes it function, what are its charecteristics etc. No-one has commented on the other styles yet. Are there only Wudang and Chen TCC-ers on MAP?

    In my own small TCC experience, I have seen a few things that I can say did not please me e.g. 'Applications' where the defender whilst executing an evasion, leaves a trailing leg in easy sight of attacker's front foot. At the moment I am too polite to start kicking peoples legs or start having silly philisophical debates during training (which I really despise) - training time is money being spent and should not be wasted.

    I make my own mistakes, and I cannot yet form a grammar to describe TCC accurately. My aikido is 23 years old since last regulary executed, but I can ask/pick up on koyo's commentary very easily - I cant do this with TCC yet.

    As for PolarBears and Chens visting Glasgow, they clearly dont know about Fish suppers.
     
  18. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Martial Arts in China were generally 'suppressed' by the government after the revolution, not just TCC. Later the government tried to controle MA practice by standardising (into what is generaly now seen as modern WuShu) it into a more controlable less threatening form.
    In more modern times China is quite prepared to promote their CMA but only really with a view to forming a cash stream, not to prrserving the historical integrity. Look at the travisty that is Shaolin.


    Chen differs from other forms of TCC mostly due to the presence of jumping kicks and stamps. Possibly due to the connection with Shaolin?

    There are other, non Chen non Wudang TCC guys here, but being mostly (or all not quite sure) Yang style they tend to be 'health' related rather than martial.


    Applications are applications are applications are one step sparring.

    Parry and Punch for example. Probably the most common time a leg is left out. What you need to remember is that the scenario is a false one. Unless your partner is into one punch one kill, which is not common in TCC, he will (in a more realistic encounter) after executing Parry and Punch continue on to another movement (generally pushing through into the checked elbow). As such the leg is being left there because its just one step sparring.

    Saying that, just kick the leg……and stop ‘applications’ being a one, two….one, two exercise as soon as you can.



    If you are enjoying it, it's not wasted no matter how time is spent.




    I try to steer clear on TCC terminology as much as possible. Fundamentally it’s used to further the elitist self image of various TCC practitioners.
    Generally terms used describe a phenomenon which is fully covered by the English language and are apparent in other arts.
     
  19. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Haha,
    Yeah, all of us Yang'ers are old ladies with dodgy hips - we can't stand martial arts really...
     
  20. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned


    I'm sure you would like martial arts if you tried it.
     

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