So you wants to study Silat?

"What I find interesting in this thread is the reaction from a number of people who seem so distressed about the wrangling. As Chas Clements (a silat player) says, a bunch of martial artists get together and a fight breaks out? What a surprise ..."

"You want peace in the valley, become a Quaker."


Thanks Steve, but I'm doing just fine the way I am without becoming something else. I don't think I'm at all distressed about there being peace in the valley. If that was the case, the power button to this computer is inches away.
Being the fighter that I am, I'm just sticking up for someone that I know personally that is being wronged along the line here. I'm also trying (in my meager years of experience) trying to bring light, and a positive diversion to the latter part of this thread. Pointing out the fact that I have learned to have an open mind, and to physically see for yourself whether a person 'has it' or not.

 

I have been asked to say something on the topic of William Sanders, so I will speak from my knowledge alone, and not suppostition.

I paid a visit to Cimande village near Bogor in 1994 with the first training camp Bambang Suwanda held since the death of his brother Herman in 2000. There were several interesting things that happened during this trip, the first being my first involvement with Silat politics in Indonesia. I was wearing an old Mande Muda T-shirt around the village one morning, and I was approached by Pak Mama (who does indeed exist, as any Mande Muda Jagabaya can tell you). He thought I was looking for him because of the shirt I was wearing. I was actually trying to avoid him because my teacher (Bambang) and Mama don't get along very well (Pak Mama has started charging greatly inflated prices to train with him since he became popular in the old Mande Muda crowd) Trying to be gracious, I went with him to his house for a while, just to pay respects. At this point I saw his wall covered with certificates, weapons and photographs. One of the photos had William Sanders in it, with Pak Mama. I was surprised to see this, but I didn't stay any later because I didn't want Bam to catch me there.

As to rank, I cannot comment on that, I was not there. I can only validate the two conflicts:

1: There is indeed a Pak Mama in Cimande.
2: He knows William Sanders.

That's all I can tell you.

 

what silat brotherhood?

Some of the posts are refering to a silat brotherhood. Maybe it's time for a wake up call and start wondering if there ever was a silat brotherhood and if there will ever be. Just te be sure, a brotherhood is not the same as national/world organization.

It's not that long ago that I was suprised that the arguments in the 'new world' were practically the same as in Europe. But as far as Europe I doubt there is grounds for the assumption of a brotherhood. There never was a sense of brotherhood between the two schools in the city I grew up. There was never a true sense of brotherhood between a lot of schools around the country. And from the Indonesian Elders that I spoke (and my teachers teacher) I got the impression there was no such thing in Indonesia too.

A brotherhood needs (among other things) a common set of values and mutual respect. So where in this world can one see a silat brotherhood? At best there is a string of different brotherhoods.

As far as I'm concerned I hope to meet a lot of (international) silat practitioners and hope te get along OK, with some I might even become good friends. Others may at least have my deepest respect and I hope it will be mutual. With some I know it will never work and respect will be a problem for the rest of our lives.

Worldpeace might be an easier goal to accomplish

 

Open Mind

I'm all for open-mindedness, and deciding if somebody who makes a claim has it or not; that's not my argument. Never has been. What I was doing was minding my own business when all of a sudden I looked up and there is a stranger throwing rocks at me. In the form of "There's no such thing as the art you say you do."

Hello?

Then the guy on the other side of the street tosses one: "Yeah, you have a little piece of it, but your teacher is very limited in what he knows, and he doesn't have the whole system, whereas I do."

Now, in a perfect world, I'd ignore this. (Of course, in a perfect world, there wouldn't be anybody making such foolish statements.)

And they are foolish statements, from where I sit.

That a guru in Silat Terrific has a personal argument with a guru of Silat Wonderful doesn't concern me -- until one or the other of the drags me into it by allowing as how what I do is every so much less worthy than what they do.

In this case, both of these teachers, along with more than a few of their senior students have, in their fight, thrown garbage our way. And, not to put too fine a point on it, their claims regarding us are horse-hockey.

I have tried to talk to both these men and was essentially told by them both that I was full of hooey. Fine.

I am old, slow, and not particularly adept as a silat player; however, if any of their students want to demonstrate how ineffective what we do is, they are welcome to drop round my place and show me the error of my ways. I have an open mind.

If I just sit back and let those claims pass, there are folks out there who will nod and say, "Well, it must be true, otherwise somebody would call 'em on it, right?"

Well, it isn't true, and I am here to tell you that every time I see one of them or their students rear up and start to blather, I am apt to call them on it.

This is an old feud, it goes way back, and it continues because the two major players hate each other more than they want peace. As soon as it starts to die down, one or the other or both throw bit more gasoline onto the coals and it flares up again.

I haven't spoken to the skills or teaching abilities of Maha Guru Terrific or Pendekar Wonderful, only to their statements regarding what I do. These guys are so busy slinging mud at each other that it slops over onto people who a) don't deserve it and b) ain't gonna take it.

I buy my ink by the barrel and have occasion to spend a lot of time at the keyboard, and when somebody shoots, I can shoot back.

Anybody has a problem with that, the complaint department is one flight up.

 

I was actually trying to avoid him because my teacher (Bambang) and Mama don't get along very well (Pak Mama has started charging greatly inflated prices to train with him since he became popular in the old Mande Muda crowd) Trying to be gracious, I went with him to his house for a while, just to pay respects. At this point I saw his wall covered with certificates, weapons and photographs. One of the photos had William Sanders in it, with Pak Mama. I was surprised to see this, but I didn't stay any later because I didn't want Bam to catch me there.

This is my opinon..Please don't have a heart attack!
If there is indeed Pak Mama, then he is part of commercial Cimande Schools that abundant lately in Indonesia. Money is evil to some degree.

Bobster, have you visited Pak Ace? He is one of the prominant Cimande in Indonesia. If Pak Ace give his blessing to William Sanders as the recepient and the founder of Cimande Pusaka. Everyone would respect him as one of the prominent Cimande player.
I'm not discrediting Sanders on his achievement. He is done good for his silat system. However, he is not representative of Cimande, for sure he is not represent me. I spoke to him along time ago and suggested why he is not claiming his achievement by naming his silat, Sander's Cimande?

I saw his silat videos, some of the movement look like cimande but he added many of the form/jurus/lankah is not a Pure Cimande. For example: Cimande is Sundanese origin, in the video he was showing a rencong wich is Aceh origin. You can't claim a pure cimande when you are mixed match with other system. There is nothing wrong with adding for betterment of the silat. However, be truthfull. A black coffee is no longer black when you are adding cream and sugar in it. Is still coffee but not a black coffee.
Now I need a coffee,
Tristan

 

"As always I HIGHLY recommend that anyone who wishes to compare what they do to what we do to attend a seminar from both arts , by a tape of both ways, examine them closely and ask yourself which way would I rather move and fight like and then make that choice and have fun"

William Sanders

I don’t see what’s wrong with this approach i.e. purchase a tape "and ask yourself which way would I rather move and fight like"

 

GAAAAAHHHHH!!! Too late!! Call 911!!! *HEAVE* - *DEATH RATTLE*

I THINK he just teaches privately now, I know he has a lot of foreign students. As I said, I didn't ever train with him.

I know who Pak Ace is, but have never met him. Please let me be clear about this: I CANNOT validate William Sander's claim to Pendekarship or representation of Cimande village, and I wasn't trying to do so. I wasn't there. I only wanted to state that Pak Mama does exist, and has met/trained with William Sanders. Who gave what to whom, I cannot say.

Also, I want to say something about the latest round of mud-slinging: This **** is so old, Moses stepped in it. It's so old, Mushtaq Ali remembers when it was shat. He probably owned the cow. Now, THAT'S OLD. By now, everybody with about 10 years (or more) experience in martial arts, and Pencak Silat in particular, knows what's going on. You know who trained where, and how good they are. You know some teachers by thier excellence alone, such as Stevan Plinck and Herman Suwanda. Others, you will know by word simply "getting around" or by infamy of thier deeds & words (I won't name names here, if it sounds like someone you know, it probably is).

To all the newbies in Silat, I say this: Look around you. Before you join a class, do some homework. The web can give you a good picture of how things are, but it can distort facts as well. Check around, ask questions, do some research. It's your butt on the line here. THEY are just as lucky to have YOU as a student, remember that.

Old timers, there is nothing I can say that hasn't already been said, killed, dug back up and kicked around. Most of you are my seniors anyway, some of you were actually there when it happened. At minimum, I don't think the dust will clear anytime soon, the base arguments are still being fueled by three senile old men who point thier fingers and mutter things to thier students, & then sit back to watch the fireworks. The students, being loyal students, take up the mantle and charge into battle filled with self-righteousness. I'm hoping that we can all sit down to some curry & beer together in about 10 years and laugh about this. It's a long shot, but I'm kind famous for that.

 

I know who Pak Ace is, but have never met him. Please let me be clear about this: I CANNOT validate William Sander's claim to Pendekarship or representation of Cimande village, and I wasn't trying to do so. I wasn't there. I only wanted to state that Pak Mama does exist, and has met/trained with William Sanders. Who gave what to whom, I cannot say.

Salam Bobster,
Understood...Thanks for the info.

Also, I want to say something about the latest round of mud-slinging: This **** is so old, Moses stepped in it. It's so old, Mushtaq Ali remembers when it was shat. He probably owned the cow. Now, THAT'S OLD. By now, everybody with about 10 years (or more) experience in martial arts, and Pencak Silat in particular, knows what's going on.

You got that right bro, how's Mushtaq Ali doing? I have not heard from him fro along time. If you saw him, send my regards.

Old timers, there is nothing I can say that hasn't already been said, killed, dug back up and kicked around. Most of you are my seniors anyway, some of you were actually there when it happened. At minimum, I don't think the dust will clear anytime soon, the base arguments are still being fueled by three senile old men who point thier fingers and mutter things to thier students, & then sit back to watch the fireworks. The students, being loyal students, take up the mantle and charge into battle filled with self-righteousness. I'm hoping that we can all sit down to some curry & beer together in about 10 years and laugh about this. It's a long shot, but I'm kind famous for that

Wise word my friend.
Tristan

 

A Challenge?

Warm salaams to all,

Liam, you are a Guru Besar in Cimande, right? I do not do Cimande. I just know that Sanders' Cimande ain't the real thing, because seniors in Cimande have said that. And his certificate looks well dodgy because of the mistakes in the wording. That is all I say, I don't say that wat you do is not silat, rather it is not as Cimande as Sanders would have you believe.

As to fighting or sparring or walking the walk, Sanders and you and anyone is welcome to come to my Sunday evening silat and gamelan happening in the Stables Market in Camden. Whatever, your Cimande is not the real thing. I think that Mas Tristan's posts clarify that well enough. You can beat me up and kill me but still your Cimande is bogus.

It is not that what you do is not silat. It is silat, formulated by Sanders. However writing a book about keris without studying Jawanese is still not recomended. Just as posing for a photograph dressed like a Sundanese groom but brandishing a naked keris on the frontpage of your www.cimande.com website, is very rude.

Please do drop in to the Stables Market.

Warm Salaams to all,

Bram

 

What I find interesting in this thread is the reaction from a number of people who seem so distressed about the wrangling. As Chas Clements (a silat player) says, a bunch of martial artists get together and a fight breaks out? What a surprise ...

You want peace in the valley, become a Quaker.

Brother Steve,
I have to disagre with you on this, its have happened but not always.
I have hosted 23rd of annual gathering. People come from all over the world to attended this gathering. Indonesian, Japanese, Korean, Philiphine, and Chinese Martial Arts students practice together, discusss things (verbally and phisically-the person have to show us what he meant), have a few drinks and discuss some more, eat and drink sand discuss more martial arts mixed with a war stories and finally drinks, dance, do some movements sialt or whatever and have the biggest laughs.

Many of us are a combat veteran from Vietnam, Grenada, Desser Storm, Iraq and Aghanistan war, current and or vets of Police and security details. So we are not a pussy to say to speaks

Not once we come to the situation where one person shouts to each other let alone fight. I WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN in my watch
We are lovers not fighters by all means
Warm regard to all,
Tristan

 

Salute! There are some good strong attitudes on this forum, Mas Tristan, Steve Perry, Bobster, Rizal, Gajah Silat, Pekir, Sgt Major, Narrue, Kiai Carita, Suleiman ... and if I've missed any ma'af lahir bathin ya, I apologise in front!

Steve is right, we are not a Quakers Society. We are loosely associated through silat .

Just a thought though ... sometimes we might worry unduly about what this and that person claims ... Sudahlah! Akhirnya air akan berpisah dengan minyak, water will separate from oil, meaning that people will be attracted that which they deserve. That is true for everyone in life, and this is just a forum .

Salam

 

Many of us are a combat veteran from Vietnam, Grenada, Desser Storm, Iraq and Aghanistan war, current and or vets of Police and security details. So we are not a pussy to say to speaks

Ahh! The left-overs of the imperial guard?

Yes I agree, it's nearly always the case when people face to face reality sets in and we usually nice, even when we not pussy's (hehe ... that is such a terrible description! ).

We see the human when face to face.

 

I agree it most of the times works that way. I would like to add though that having a major disagreement shouldn't 'hurt' as much as it often seems to do on forums like this. I personally have no appreciation for the commercial advertising and exploitation of some of our silat 'brothers' using words "like the deadliest MA in the world" and such. This only means I don't favor their choices and doesn't neccesarily says anything about my appreciation for the persons behind it. All to often this difference is not singled out and things are taken personal when they are not.

I only have a small group of truely good/best friends and none of them are without 'handicaps' and it is most certainly the same the other way around. The same goes for my silat friends and me

Hormat Perkir

 

Well I must say there is lots of Varity in that photo, a Californian Pendekar who practices a Javanese style silat dressed in a Sundanese wedding outfit holding a Balinese keris.

 

Keris Lore

You have good eyes that you can tell the keris is Balinese from that itty-bitty photo. I'd guess the same, but only because of the length -- I can't determine the pamor, though it does seem to be a nine-luk blade and heavy.

In defense of Sanders writing a book about the keris, a couple of things:

First, whatever you might argue about his rank, he obviously has spent some time in Indonesia and, one assumes, has picked up some bits of Bahasa.

Second, there have been some very good books written about the keris in English and Dutch, and with the help of a good dictionary, one can do rough translations of some of the material written about the blades in Bahasa Indonesian, albeit that is a slow process (speaking from experience here.)

If you have access to some material -- Tammen's three-volume encyclopedia, De Keris: Magic Relic of Old Indonesia (in English and Dutch) or von Zonneveld's Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago (English and German versions, I believe), along with a handful of shorter works, ranging from English to Australian to Hawaiian refererences, as well as some pretty good internet resources, you could put together a fair basic book on the making, care, and feeding, as well as the history of, the keris.

Third, I'm in touch with Alan Maisey, who is one of the more knowledgeable Indonesian blade dealers in the western world, an Australian married to a Javanese woman. Maisey is fluent in the language, visits Java every year or two, and has written about Indonesian weaponry. Maisey was trained by an empu, and understands the construction and care of the keris. I happen to know that Sanders is also in contact with Maisey.

Fourth, if you have an Indonesian teacher who can pass along what he knows about the things, that can help, too.

Sanders knows more about the keris now than he once did -- some of his earlier written material is lacking, and demonstration of extensive forms using the dagger seem unlikely to have come from traditional Tjimande sources. The keris hasn't been used as a weapon as much as it has a talisman for a long time.

I could write a book about the keris -- I have a small collection of them gathered over some years, Malay Peninsula, Javanese, Balinese -- and while such a book would not have the depth of one written anybody with any real expertise, it would certainly have things that most people wouldn't know about, even a fair number of silat players.

 

I think its Balinese because as you said the blade is very long, much longer then his forearm plus the gayaman is Bali (godoan) style (probably made from molar material) with what looks like a gold sheath. Actually quite a classy keris.

 

More on keris....

Warm salaams to all,

Indeed, Pak Steve, Pak Alan Maisey is the Western authority on keris. My impression is that all writers before him were colonialists and often made simple mistakes like explaining the ron-dha as a widow (randha) rather than ron (leaf) dha (the letter dha) and other small things like that. Pak Alan spent along time near Solo and worked with a lot of the Solo Mpus especially, if I am not mistaken, Pak Pauzan. Haryono Haryoguritno and the late Bambang Harsrinuksmo are his Indonesian counterparts. And there is a keris lovers mailing list called javakeris too where people can talk and learn about keris.

Sanders' keris appears to be a naga type, I think the pamor is kelengan, with a kinatah naga in gold it looks like: A keris meant to lead and inspire fear in opponents. At any rate he should not be brandishing it on his front page unless it is his intention to challenge anyone interested.

Looking at the USA ranking system on Sanders' website it seems that people who made it do not know much Indonesian at all. Nearly all the ranks are in wierd Indonesian, not to say wrong. Pelajarn, Guru Baharu and so on...

And since when did Cimande silat use the keris?

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

 

Well, self praise is no praise, but I cook a fine beef rendang Dry, tender, meat falling to pieces just as it should be....but I've found it goes better with a fine British Ale than the ol' Bintang I actually found a shop that sells Bintang in the UK so we had a sate & Bintang night.

That's cultural diffusionalism for yer!

 

GAJAH!!!!

Could you believe I had a SUPER sized bottle of Bintang just about every night we were in Bali last month?!? Got one for Pendekar Bam as well, & it put a smile across his face also!! It really gets the job done, especially with a spicy Indian dinner being served by beautiful Balinese girls. Man, what great memories...I kept thinking I had died & didn't go to hell after all. Also, I still have your beef rendang recipe, very interesting indeed. Gotta go for that, probably this weekend.

You know what would be cool? A silat-curry symposium, evrybody gets together, trains, eats, has a beer & shares Silat stories about our teachers. I mean, what's not to like? I have a huge DVD collection, I'm sure we could find something interesting, or just go back out & train again. Inebriated.

We could, perhaps, leave the political scat to the politicians & just have a good time.

 

And since when did Cimande silat use the keris?

I'm wondering out loud too :bang:
Things to ponder:
Sparring with the same silat student will help a great deal but we must be very careful that we are not becomes complecent with it

Dancing fight, walking around the ring, IT DOES NOT WORK in tournament fight. In my days, when I saw the Kung fu students started making sound and moving his hand like a monkey, I scored three painfully points before he finish saying MOMMy! Moving your hands like monkey? You will make a monkey of yourself.

They told me that the way I fought like a bloody Irishman and they gave me a nick name: Tris O'Malley
My compliment to you all Irishman.

Tournament is good for self test and self confidence, you doing it all alone.
In an empty hand or weapons Form/kata, You will be judge by your pears, if you are sucks then be it, if you are good you will win their approval. There is no butt. That's the way it is, it is your responsibility to show that your form have meaning.

In Self-Defense, you will be judge by how effective your techniques are, not the uniform your wore.

In fighting, the objective is not to get hit and score point or clearly hit your opponent regardless the judges see them or not. One time in the tournament my opponent unable to continue the fights, prior to that, none of the judges give me a points, they kept saying a clash. yeap, clash all right

To anyone, if you are really wants to know how good you are? Compete in the Open Karate tournament. In the USA, you can compete every week, if your heart desire

In the 70's I have not seen any silat student fight in the open tournament, none! BTW, I competed for three years and have a good times with it.
Just my worthless thought,
Tristan