So What's Special About Your Taiji?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by onyomi, Apr 23, 2006.

  1. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    In another thread, I asked "what does Yang have that Chen doesn't have?" I thought I would just start a whole new thread, basically asking everyone what they would say characterizes their style of Taiji and why you think it is the style for you.

    As I said, my reason for choosing traditional Chen is that the forms still have high physical training value because of their low stances, small circles, stretching and coiling postures, and variations in speed and power. Besides all the softness, listening, sensitivity, redirection and finesse of the first form, it also contains the more martially-applicable Paochui form, which is chuck full of decidedly active modes of attack. Chen is has yin and yang, health and martial and that's why I like it.

    I'm not going to criticize other styles further because I haven't had enough experience with them to be fair and because it's always counter-productive. Rather, I'd like anyone else who's willing to give an explanation of the specific characteristics of the style they do, and what about that style attracts them. What training techniques do you use and what function do they serve? What are the stances and body mechanics like? What is the overall fighting strategy? Do you push hands? Spar? Do other drills? Is there any qigong? If so, what kind? If there is fajin, what are the mechanics of it? Please go into more detail than just "Yang" as, as many people have pointed out, that can mean almost anything. Thanks in advance. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2006
  2. Wanderer

    Wanderer Valued Member

    I think there may be some focuses or emphases among styles.

    Yang may stress larger movements or big opening and big closing or Da Kai Da He.

    Wu may stress smaller and finer circular movements.

    Sun Lu Tang stressed opening and closing or Kai He.

    There is a practitioner believing that there is even Tai Chi in your thumb and the middle finger.

    For most, the smaller rotation meaning around the wrist and the palm.

    The highest level is that the circle is so small that is not visible but sensible all over your body.

    There are circular Jin all over your body or Huen Shen Si Jin.

    ---

    :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2006
  3. Wanderer

    Wanderer Valued Member

    OOPs what I meant to say is that

    How big the circles we practice?

    :D
     
  4. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I believe the one about "the circles are so small that they become invisible," because I've felt it. However, what I've felt and seen are very small, but still visible and circular movements (maybe someone will say my teacher's Taiji is low level because he still has to move). I feel like this is sometimes used as an excuse for "masters" who are actually just doing something simple and want to say "you just don't understand what I'm doing. The circles are all on the inside." I feel like though there are "internal circles," like the dantian rotating and those created by the limbs, it seems like their should still be some outward movement or else you sacrifice power. Would you say these circles exist in all styles of Taiji? Why does it seem Yang only focuses on very large circles as opposed to Chen, which has many little circles in the large ones? Does this provide any advantage other than simplicity? Does anyone here with more experience really feel they've gotten the knack of "shrinking the circles down to invisibility"?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2006
  5. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    You don't have power at all if it is all internal, it has to manefest on the outside. It is powerful when coupled with movement, but you still have to move. It's the 'movement = external' school of thought I don't subscribe to. Personally I feel it as external when the limbs do all the work, I can immediatley feel the difference when someone is pushing or deflecting from the arms rather than from the waist/legs/whole body. This is what I find forms great for, you can really feel everything comming together, feel all the circles, the opening and closing. all that.

    What's special about my Tai Chi. Nothing. As soon as I read 2 lines about it I was hooked and knew it was the martial art for me, the one I have always wanted to do. Got to move to Glasgow a year later and take it up.
     
  6. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    "Why does it seem Yang only focuses on very large circles as opposed to Chen"

    It doesn't . The progression is large frame to mdeium frame to small frame.
     
  7. steve Rowe

    steve Rowe Valued Member

    Often strikes me that we're all doing the same thing but using different words..
     
  8. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    Its special cos its mine... :)
     
  9. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    So why does one so rarely see the "small frame" Yang? I think I may have seen Richard's teacher doing something like it, but does anyone else have a link to Yang "small frame"? Do most Yang schools progress like this or only certain lineages/schools? Why do 99% of the demonstrations one sees of Yang seem only to contain the larger circles? When you perform the small frame, are the large circles still there outside the little ones, or is it simply that you shrink down the movements?

    Anyone here do Wu, Wu-hao or Sun? If so, what attracted you to those styles as opposed to the more common Yang? What are their special characteristics?
     
  10. RobP

    RobP Valued Member

    "So why does one so rarely see the "small frame" Yang?"

    I guess because it's not put out on video, being generally taught "in-house".

    Having said that I've never seen "small frame" Chen, let alone anyone who could use it beyond a form. YMMV

    cheers
    Rob
     
  11. Buddy

    Buddy Valued Member

    I've done some Yang and Chen but mostly Wu, because that's what my teacher taught. Chen Panling is next, though.
     
  12. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Paochui is the "application form" for Chen Taiji. It takes the principles and body mechanics cultivated in the first form and turns them into more aggresively martial applications. It is NOT just some Shaolin form that the Chens threw in for fun. It contains all the same principles and elements as the first form when done properly, though it may seem more "external" to the casual observer. All the moves in Paochui can be applied fairly "as-is" (though of course one move may have many different applications). Of course, the moves in Yilu can also be applied in fighting, but it requires a somewhat greater modification.
     
  13. Pikul

    Pikul Valued Member

    I like the CMC I practice because I think it is so relaxed/lazy/can't be bothered/introverted/carefree/non-threatening. It is very close quarters with heavy emphasis on elbow and shoulder strokes. All I do training wise are some swinging/loosening exercises/cloud hands/bear/silk-reeling and push-hands with my teacher. At the moment I feel that's all I need. The art never ceases to amaze me as I'm being flung across the room, squashed like a tin can, hit multiple times in a short space of time, or being run over like a steam roller. Then after a session you just feel cool, loose and buzzing. You could train it all day everyday without crippling yourself. It really is the best form of exercise there is.
     
  14. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    I like Wudang TCC because everything I'm shown, I get to put into context by trying to do it to somebody who won't let me, and is trying to work their own thing against me, usually in the same lesson. I know other types of TCC do this too, but it was a real eye opener for me when I first saw TCC trained this way.
     
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    bang on..i've pretty much butchered the way i was taught originally, i do it diff to my class teacher and he doesn't seem to mind.. :)
     
  16. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    moves?

    the thing about moves is.. there just moves. It is the principles you Are after.. not just the surface one.. they should be the first to let go not make 'application forms'.

    Your form should become/look less 'application' as you progress in good taijiquan. A form with strong application elements is good to learn early on
    That's one of the reasons i still like the form i was originally taught. but you would see it less clearer now in that form.

    I'm sure you've heard the word hidden used by Yang people on this forum.
    Yang has different forms too like fast forms and 'application forms'

    so what..
    it's all same same. there are various levels of 'application' up to hitting vital areas
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2006
  17. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    This is opposite to the Chen way of thinking. Why should your form look less applications as you progress? You may start to have more advanced applications in mind when doing your form, but martial arts forms are always supposed to be done with an imaginary opponent in mind.

    You learn Laojia to instill the principles, (peng, lu, ji, an, softness, circles, yin-yang, etc.) and then you learn Paochui to learn how to apply them. You don't stop practicing Laojia entirely because you still need to review the "base." However, in terms of actual application, I'd say Paochui is much closer to how you'll use Taiji in a real fight. Besides, the more people progress, the more I find they spend more time on drilling and varying individual moves in a realistic manner, rather than starting to look less and less realistic.

    Some might say the form looks less like the application because it focuses on the energy of, say, peng. I'd say that the more advanced you become the better you'll be able to put peng into your movements, but that doesn't mean they should stop being martial in nature. After all, if you can only use peng in a way that isn't martially applicable then what good does it do you? Others might say it will look less like application because it becomes more focused on the qigong aspect. I'd say you don't have to sacrifice the form of the moves for the purposes of qigong. You can have your cake and eat it too.
     
  18. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    My teacher and fellow students make my taiji special.

    It is their attitudes that keep me interested and make me want to go to class.

    The style is irrelevant, it is the people that make the art what it is. Every style has crap schools, but it is not the style that is at fault.

    I like the term needle wrapped in cotton. Our form should 'look' like cotton but the steel is still there. We should not have to wave our arms about just to show how 'steely' we are.
     
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well maybe I'm just guessing here, but because it gets more internalized...maybe?

    You see the gross rather than the net. In fighting it is the 'gross that works better than a catalogue of intricate techniques. I'd rather have a handfull of 'gross' movement i can apply in lots of way in diff scenario.. be it stand up or ground.

    The best fighters past and present prove this.

    Locking (chinna) for example.

    Generally in yang it is bigger and more incorperated less a seperate and intricate element of its own.

    I see this a v good thing..

    Having said that I saw one Yang teacher who was teaching a 2 man chinna form in the first class I went. I didn't go back.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2006
  20. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I agree about the smaller set of more general principles being superior to a million specific techniques. This is why Paochui is simpler than Laojia. You have to have a good background in Laojia to do Paochui well because otherwise it will be very hard to get the small circular movements and the internal movements into the fast, seemingly simple movements of Paochui. Once you learn Paochui, however, I think it's actually easier and much more "generalized" than Laojia. This is why it's considered the "application" form--because application must be flexible while training (Laojia) can be more rigid.
     

Share This Page