So what should Tai Chi look like?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Baggsy, Jan 18, 2006.

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  1. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    First off, I haven't seen any of the clips, as they're in some hideous un-user-friendly format that seemingly most people can't download :rolleyes: so I cannot comment on individual ability, only on what's been said here, on theory and experiences of my own....
    No I don't have any clips, because, believe it or not, I agree that many people cannot use TJQ realistically and I have only rarely met anyone that can - Alex Kozma and Middleway are two who I have come across - and I've stated my views on the efficacy of clips many times (to sum up: at best, questionable). I also know, having watched clips of myself pushing hands etc, that what you see from outside is very rarely what you experience inside... It is too easy to say "He should have..." A major dynamic I learnt from ninjutsu was that what goes on between you and an opponent cannot be discerned accurately from outside (not in an internal sense anyway) - in boxing and sparring it is different, because (ime) there is less full on commitment ironically - iow you are "hitting from outside" (wai jia) not "attacking from inside" (nei jia). If I am doing it right, then someone needs to really go for me to get the full benefit of my skills lol - I'll get hurt, but they'll get really hurt lol I have to have committed force in order to turn it well. I like the idea of resistance, but not force versus force, I want my opponent to over-commit and 'lose it' not tippy-tap from the outside. I think stand up sparring is a useful skill development and good 'environment training' but what it is not, and probably never can be, is 'real' taiji in action. Real Taiji in action should put you in hospital imo - you'll never see a clip of that.
    My own training for the last six years or so has been to learn how to effectively use what I have learnt and develop my Taiji further - sparring I find pushes me back into the physical, but I am becoming more efficient over time through continuing practice then gradually adding pressure into the equation. Eventually I will be able to apply the skills in a 'realistic' way - at present I am still a beginner :)
    I tried to find a link to the UK neijia institute but I couldn't get it to work, their site seems in a mess right now. BUT when you look at clips of Alex and co, you'll probably think they are co operating - having been on the receiving of them I can assure you they are not, I couldn't use my arm properly for about 3 days after trying to punch Alex in the head - I sensed that if I'd tried even harder, he'd have broken my arm easily. Resistance doesn't enter into it. You do it to yourself. You can never learn skills like that if you spar too soon and in an 'external' way.
    a.) I did say I wasn't being nasty - b.) life isn't fair and good martial arts certainly aren't! :D (I want to mess my opponent up quickly and walk away not stand ther and trade blows or wrestle with him for ages - not 'fair' - efficient :yeleyes: )
    c.) nobody has infinite stamina, regardless of what they train in or how hard they train - This is a preconception and a self-limiting affirmation imo. My suggestion to you is not to make such sweeping assumptions about reality if you want to progress! :) Again I'm not being nasty, I know from my own experience how much you can miss when you 'fix' your beliefs.
    Classical Taiji promises the opposite of your affirmation - if you have never trained the classical way, you will never experience this - are you starting to understand the reservations about 'sparring' at an early stage yet? (clue: it promotes wai jia and blocks neijia)
  2. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    :) sure does :D
    Assumption - and a wrong one imo. You're better off getting in as close as possible and taking your opponent down or throwing him out asap - you yield into your opponent with an elbow or shoulder or lock or crush him etc all where he can't see or defend it. There are many other ways, but moving away is not a good tactic unless you have infinite space to move in or an opponent with limited brains and/or skills. See below... :cool:
    Yes, in terms of Aikido, but Taijiquan also has methods for working inside that sphere.
    That's why Taiji waits for the opponent to move then arrives first. Punching is not the primary aspect of Taiji imo but becomes the main one when you put gloves on and do a stand up. A punch should happen as your opponent tries to strike you not because you are pursuing a retreating opponent (not good taiji imo)
    A little confused by this statement, I assume in the first one you're talking 'other' doing to you, and in the second 'you' as the 'other' - in which case I agree :D
    Actually I think that's the best way to use Taiji. Forget about being fair and prolonging the fight! What's the point of that? Finish the opponent as quick as possible with the least effort possible = good taiji :yeleyes: As I said before, who says it should be fair? :D
  3. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Was that if you stand in the lea of a tree with tabi boots on at midnight with a westerly wind and close your become INVISIBLE!

    Hmmm, every one has good TCC when the opponent is over committed. The real skill is getting your opponent to over commit, not requiring them to over comit.

    This is true, assuming that you have the skill to beat them close in, or they are not much bigger than you, or they took judo and trained more freely than you....hmmm, on second thoughts, unless you are bigger or better trained.....may be staying outside striking range is a good idea!

    If your TB's TCC is the r3al then, sadly I concur. R3al TCC will leave you in hospital.

    I hope the people Butterfly is showing knife disarms as part of his 'r3al' TCC class are really lucky in life.

    For such reasons as...........................?

    Yeah, sparring fundamentally challenges your entrenched ideas in a way that you cannot accept, so you avoid it, or water it down till it is so far away from sparring that it becomes acceptable.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2006
  4. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Stereotyping ninjutsu? That's not like you liokault :rolleyes: I never went in for dressing up, rejected the grading system and just concentrated on learning to hurt people personally - invisibility is another subject altogether... :)
    I agree entirely. If you wait long enough and stay with them they'll do it eventually, alternatively you can tease and wind them up until they lose it... :rolleyes: basic taiji strategy mentioned in many classics. Also, any aggressive action can be made into an overcomittment if you know how to move your (and their) centre in the right way at the right time... :cool:
    Sure, if you're wearing gloves and playing to rules. (I've already covered how seriously I take conflict and the idea of "there's always someone bigger/better than you btw) That's why I largely suspect it's (sparring) a waste of time as anything other than a partial training and conditioning tool. I like to fold in and drive my elbow into them, tear and twist any flesh I can get contact with or use straight finger gouges, locks and bone breaking methods, I also love headbutting as I have a very hard head, none of which are allowed in sparring, I suspect. A punch to the sternum wearing gloves is completely different in effect to bare knuckles ime, one you can carry on from, the other may well be "game over" if it's done right :D My small size tends to be an advantage for me if I'm allowed free reign also I expect to get hit on my way in, if I'm thrown I'll go with it but still finish what I'm doing on the way down lol 'Fighting' is not a game or a sport imo it's a life and death business. My first teacher taught me to expect broken bones and injuries but to focus on taking the other person off the planet :cool: In case that sounds like I'm 'bigging myself up' I personally feel I am a very limited and average MAist with huge amounts to learn. I am just a beginner at tjq...
    Who can say? Is yours? Does anyone really care? Let's hope none of us ever have to find out... :)
    A point missed by such a distance it's hardly worth addressing imo, but if you insist... you haven't seen what I do in classes so don't go there, just because your nose is out of joint. Any intelligent person knows there are no guarantees where knives are concerned and the best tactic is to avoid having to defend against stabbing in the first place. Again, my teacher said: "expect to get cut, use your 'off-hand' for any technique as you may lose fingers or the use of the hand altogether" The last time I was threatened with a sharp implement I backed off with my hands up. I was well frustrated but my ninjutsu teacher congratulated me for doing the right thing. We then had a two hour session on knife disarms at full speed, which I have been building on ever since through practice (as well as the stuff we did regularly in his classes). I'm not confident around knife defences tbh - if you are then, no offense intended, you're an idiot m8 - no 'technique' is 100% ime/o
    Taiji is neijia - read the classics and apply them to your training - I can't do that for you. As I said before I am interested in what you do and I haven't seen your tjq so I cannot say what you are like at it. What did you say to me before...? "I only have how you are and what you write on here to go on" or something like that - that's why I think your training is not correct - I'm open to being wrong. I don't think I am though. :)
    Yup, been there, done that... What rubbish you speak Liokault! I have said to you before that I am open to sparring and I may come to a throwdown when it is convenient or if I choose to - (not because you insist it is the only way to do tjq) - so I don't get why you are so continually harsh on me and others here...not unless you have some kind of ego-based insecurity problem about your MA abilities...? I'm sure you don't... do you?
    BTW why don't you challenge your entrenched ideas about what is and what is not good martial arts training and try something different? You might find there's a whole area of tjq you are missing out on...
  5. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    But 'NiNjas are funny, I retain the right to poke fun at them :D

    And yet, you have already posted that in sparring (by definition the least constrained situation in training) people are not (over) committed enough for you.

    Its training, its a tool, its a training tool. It is indeed a waste of time as anything other than training.....I don't understand the problem here.

    Yeah, you take conflict seriously, so you train for it by avoiding it?

    Ooooo, the d3adly!!!11!!!ONE!!

    Saying that sparing (or indeed tournament fighting) is pointless because you cant brake bones or headbutt or poke eyes out is like saying that pushing hands is pointless because you can't brake bones or headbutt or poke eyes .

    Tell that to the 120kg Cullion who had to be manually supported by a third party after the 75kg 16oz glove wearing Vince clocked his sternum sparring on Tuesday night.

    Being small, its not an advantage, its just something you learn to deal with through training.

    A life and death business that you appear unwilling to address in anything but the most contrived way.

    No, but I picture lots of friendly hugging, followed by intense angry shouting

    My teacher said "knife defence, don't be stupid, don't waste my time".

    The last time I was threatened with a sharp implement I agreed to stop posting on Ninjutsu forums.

    I question your concept of correct.

    I have already stated that it's not the only way to do TCC. It's the only way to do TCC (or any MA) as a fighting art. This is true.

    Yes my ego is so fragile and my insecurity so overpowering that I have allowed myself to be video'd sparring (at full contact) total strangers (four people I think) and have it posted on the intraweb and let others ridicule as they see fit. Hell, even I have not seen all of the clips!

    Where is the video of the more secure traditional TTC (to use your meaning of traditional) us who do their TCC properly?

    As I have said before, I have my ideas challenged on a regular basis. When I am proved wrong I am quite prepared to react and change my ways based on that experience.
  6. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    So do I. It was a joke lol apparently your ability to laugh at yourself is not as well developed as your ability to laugh at others :D
    Please don't twist my words to mean what you want them to. thank you :)
    I agree entirely. The only problem is the way you keep childishly demanding to see footage of others demonstrating their tjq's effectiveness and slagging people if they don't or for not coming miles to play with you... sigh :rolleyes:
    (see above comment: Please don't twist my words to mean what you want them to. thank you :) )
    :D please don't cherry pick from my comments (ie Please don't twist my words to mean what you want them to. thank you :)
    (see previous comment about cherrypicking) ...and saying either 'proves' you can fight in a... dun-dun-daaa... REAL situation is also rot....
    Nice punch then! And your point is? (Please refer to my earlier posts regarding "no guarantees, no absolutes and always there will be someone who will catch you")
    Please don't twist my words to mean what you want them to. thank you :) - I said: "an advantage for me" you work it out :D
    Please don't twist my words to mean what you want them to. thank you :)
    Actually I don't tend to hug people unless I want to crush their internal organs, again: Please don't twist my words to mean what you want them to. thank you :)
    please refer to your own previous comments about "avoiding conflicts" - pot - kettle - black methinks
    This was in the street behind my house when I confronted a group of yobs vandalising parked cars - one of them turned on me :eek:
    I question your concept of Taijiquan :D
    Did someone bring a cow in here...? :D
    Good for you. When I've seen the clips I'll let you know what I think :)
    Can't make sense of that sentence, if it means what I think, I don't know. Perhaps if I get good enough I'll video some stuff and let you rip it apart, eh?
    Hmmmm :rolleyes: methinks I spy - a porky pie!
  7. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    If you don't want your words twisted stop changing your point of view. You DO/Don't agree with sparring in TCC?

    Well, as this thread is based on a posted video of me and the statement 'this is not TCC, so what is?' I am well placed to make this demand. Until someone can provide some form of evidence to counter my point I will keep saying that this is indeed what TCC looks like.

    At no point have I asked for video of masters bouncing boxers around the room. Hell, it doesn't even have to be sparring, just free from co-operation, stand-up wrestling shall we say.

    Have I slanged anyone off for not coming to the 'throwdown'? Or are you cherry picking my words, then throwing all of my words away and putting your made up words in there place?


    I have never said that either prove anything of the kind. Words,twist,pot,kettel,black

    I feel your child's pain. One moment your letting him/her sink into the sand, the next your crushing ribs :D

    My god, don't they know who you are? How lucky were they!!!

    I managed to edit out the word 'amoung' it where you feel the need, twisty word guy.

    No one has that much time!

    No seriousely, I am not interested in ripping anything apart and I am sure that goes for every one here. Just get a cam get Tejitsudo and have a go at something. Put in what ever arbitrary rules you like to keep you safe, but try to keep it free. No need for punches and kicks (and hence no gloves) if you really feel that you can't perform with them. Then post what happened.
  8. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    liokault, I watched the video of yourself playing with Adrian, and I liked the double leg takedown you got in at around 1.08 in. Straight out of the form that is people. Also quite liked how near the beginning you went for his guard before going for him. Guy at our club who has tons of fighting experience goes for the guard, especially against Mauy Thai folk. He is a big guy, 6' 2" maybe, but he just puts his hands on the guard and follows them around. Drives them nuts. Does it in moving step too, he leans on you and you end up carrying him about - big lazy ******* that he is!! :D

    Seen a couple of takedowns in the yourself and Nate video that I liked to.

    Kudos for stepping in with the rest of them with a duff neck.

    And if it is any consolation Cullion, the extent of your, shall we say winter insulation, have been greatly exagerated! I don't think you are that fat! I think liokault is just jealous of your locks ;)
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2006
  9. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Adrian was a nice guy, and my height lol.

    I would call it 'step up raise hands' without the groin strike. It was not as clean as it could have been, I had to adjust his weight for him on the way up, rather than him going straight over.

    I have not seen the clip of me and Nate yet. All I remember is falling over lots due to being tired.

    Feel free to come to the next one. Its going to be further north I believe. Hell you can even go onto bullshido and suggest a location yourself (or indeed through a thread here on MAP).

    He doesn't look fat as Charmin had to use a special lens to fit him into the shot.
  10. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    That's what Step up Raise Hands is innit, single and double leg takedowns? That's how I know them anyway! Haven't done the groin strike bit, but they terrify me after Dan done Needle at Sea Bottom to me in Ireland and Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain to me by grabing me by the trousers between the legs :eek: That last one was filmed for his DVD too, I pray it isn't on it as I have no idea what is comming and I break my fall with my face with a lack of both grace and style. Plus I was a lot heavier, had long hair and crazy blue trousers on. I won't be able to go to any other Tai Chi functions for shame!

    I do remember one good takedown anyway! I liked that clip of the two of you, I think it is the best clip of you posted in the thread.

    Cheers, I will try to, they look fun. Plus Cullion would have another fat bloke there to slap around! :D

    Hehe, cruel bugger! :D
  11. Pikul

    Pikul Valued Member

    Hello everyone. I'm brand new to this forum. I think tai chi looks clumsy and accidental but when you're on the receiving end you know about it.
  12. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    I think it's vastly overrated tbh and often counterproductive - BUT - it has some limited value - it's what you think it does that counts ime/o and what you do when you do it.... no one training method can do it all imo
    a.) haven't seen the clip b.) it's what your version of tcc looks like.... :rolleyes:
    I have plenty of clips of 'free' push hands, competitive uprooting push hands and I think there may still be a blindfolded push hands clip somewhere, anyway I have no idea how to post them, but they are all 100% non-cooperative. However YOU will see whatever you wish to see as you always do I expect :rolleyes:
    Yes and er No! "Its been about 24 hours and no one can put up a vid that shows what they feel real TCC should look like against a non co-operative opponent. As such I declare that the bullshido clips are exactly what it should look like, and that you bunch of puff's know no better" and "Now, I do remember giving an open invitation no this forum to anyone who wanted to come down, no one of course turned up." Maybe I'm twisting your words, but I know you're thinking it... lol :rolleyes:
    Sure you haven't :rolleyes:
    Ranting. Boring. :rolleyes:
    I'm just a bloke, not a tcc god like you oh great one.... :D
    Can't be bothered :cool:
    I'm sure you'll find it...
    (Coz that would be really out of character eh?) Everything I do is 'free'. But who knows maybe I will, just for you... :love:
  13. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Welcome aboard - agree 100%
  14. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    You are misrepresenting my words and the teaching within our group. Energetic work as in the clips that so pre-occupy everyone here does not represent our / my Tai-Chi, it represents part of the training. The energetic in our title refers to internal development as the focus of our training, and that does not mean physically inside the body as most people misunderstand. If you actually came to a class you would find the following.

    One hour Qigong split into 20 minutes standing meditation. 20 minutes exercises - 1st set physical / stretching / balance exercises - 2nd set energetic path opening and deveopment. 20 minutes energetic application including a fajin development set and awareness exercise / partner work.

    One hour Tai-Chi hand form - 20 minute 1st part - 20 minute 2nd part - 20 minute 3rd part. This is a Yang family 2nd generation large frame.

    Half Hour Pushing Hands (tui-sau) consisting of some pattern work but mainly Sensitivity and Dynamic Push Hands practice. While this is going on some students are invited to work with me on energetic application and development (the stuff in the energy work clips) or physical application work.

    Half Hour weapons forms.

    It takes at least 5 years before all of this training is completed and they reach senior status and potentially become eligable to the senior / instructor class. These classes are invitation only and consist of the work only given within the family to Tudi / disciples. Not being Chinese I do not follow the bai-shi system, so our equivelent to disciple status is being appointed instructor. They then are taught (along with invited senior students) the 2nd generation middle frame (application form), advanced energetic work and fighting hands (san-sau). Apart from me we have 4 other instructors within the group.

    So as you can see the work you refer to is but a very small part of our training. It is on the back edge of our website. When I joined this list I didn't even talk about it. But people find it and hold it up as some sort of flag and representation of our school. Post after post came back dissing it with complete lack of understanding, so per usual I was given no option but to try and explain the nature of the work, but as usual very few are willing to listen. It is a form of jealousy and predudice, human nature really - "I can't do this, so it must be - magic - the natural excrement that emerges from the rear end of an adult male bovine - cooperation" etc etc. They have to find a self satisfying explanation for their own ignorance.

    The major difference I perceive between practical or wudang that lio (whats his face) does and us, is that they are practical, we are very impractical. Tai-Chi is impractical as it requires change within the individual and that takes time, there are no shortcuts. If you become practical and quick then you teach a level of work that imparts blocks to that change / development, so you have something else not Tai-Chi. That was the basis of my argument.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2006
  15. bonjopi

    bonjopi New Member

    you should be able to push over the internet
    if you touch one thread on the net, all the threads should move
    fast, straight down, and stop, without any perceptible wiggle\wobble
    the chances of meeting someone that flow's energy exactly the same
    way you do, is remote
    you have to deal with the differences, the similarities you should enjoy
    Tai chi should look like a soft breeze
    everyone can deal with a soft breeze
    would you like to know why so few people ever achieve any skill in martial arts?
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2006
  16. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Oh, for gods sake! You had a video of a guy being stuck to the flipping floor, as if by magic by another guy standing over him with wiggling finger!!

    What sort of reaction were you expecting?

    So your saying that your TCC the real TCC, because yours gives you no demonstrable skill, whereas my TCC is less than, because it does give you a demonstrable skill! Well at least your reply doesn’t leave the option of asking you for a video!
  17. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    Once again, it is only magic in your eyes because you don't understand it. If you understood it you would see that it is not magic. Where do you see no demonstrable skills. You are mind blocked!! unless you see gross physical application and some clouting or kicking you dont recognise it. Our skills are completely demonstrable and we have over 150 students attending our classes, where it is demonstrated. Simply your TCC is not TCC it is something else, and because of your something else you are blocked to what TCC is QED.
  18. bonjopi

    bonjopi New Member

    I have a question for Richard Dunn
    Do you teach people the origins of tai chi?
  19. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Richard, I'm very curious about what your senior students look like when engaged in 'San Sau'. Do you have any clips ?
  20. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    Sorry it is private work / inside the door.
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