Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Baggsy, Jan 18, 2006.
this video you posted, really, they dont even look like they have even trained in any martialart.
And yet, one of the guys was at the time the head of his line in Wu style (I think he was about 50 years old at the time).
If it looks like poor (to put it kindly) kick boxing with someone of his credentials doing it, what does this say about What Should Tai Chi Look Like
There are many so called "heads of styles" that cant demonstrate any decent level of skill. This however does not mean, anything other than "there are many so called "heads of styles" that cant demonstrate any decent level of skill".
As said, assumption is the mother of all … :Angel: ….
Not true - Also violation of TOS.
This would be a good time to yield Learn to take critisism.
All in all, I'll end by saying this. Liokault, you have one of the worst attitudes I have ever come across. You are unable to take critisism on any level. You are rude, arrogant, and close minded.
You know, the more you feed them, the more crap comes out of them..
Like I said before, BTDT. Damn, you Englishmen are stubborn folk!
Like I said before, I'm no expert and these are just my opinions, and my comments here are for pure entertainment (to myself) and a way of passing time, so please take no offense.
The truth, as it appears to me, is that Liokault is a frustrated TC student. His sparring proves this point. At least, to me it does. He's not getting what he wants out of his TC practice, so he's "looking" for something he can't find. He's out to prove something. What, I'm not sure. He states he's out to test his TCC, but one wonders if what he is out to "test" is really TCC at all? Most people who practice TC aren't really doing TCC anyway. For most folk it takes a long ass time to get good at TCC and many think they are, but a LOT of them are NOT. TCC as a training system (at least from my view), is a long process of cultivation and body integration, so if you start practicing sparring right away before your body and intent has been developed you will steer yourself right off the cliff. You might as well study kickboxing. In the clip, the "tcc player" doesn't appear to be "trying" to apply the principles of TC when he spars. What it does appear like to me is a guy trying to do kickboxing with a little bit of wrestling thrown in. Nothing at all wrong with that, but surely not pure TCC. If I were to fight a boxer, why would I stand toe-to-toe with him and try to trade punches? I wouldn't. If I were to fight a wrestler, why would I go to the ground purposely and play his game? I wouldn't. In the video, he is "playing" the kickboxer game, he is NOT playing TCC.
Do I have a video of a TCC student/master being attacked for "real?" No. So what? Doesn't prove anything anyway. Have you ever thought about the fact that maybe some high level TCC masters/students really don't care much for sparring? After all, there are different schools of thought on the sparring issue. Some say it develops bad habits, and others say differently. The funny thing about this whole issue is that the few times I have seen supposed TCC players posting clips of their sparring they all seem to be at a lower level. Just my opinion.
To sum this stuff up:
LioKault, I don't think you will ever find what you are looking for, so why don't you stop your masquerading as a TCC player and join the local dojo for some kickboxing lessons. Seriously, I don't mean to sound offensive, but you may be much more happier. That way you can spar everyday, hit the heavy bags, the speed bags, get in the ring and go a few rounds, do those lofty kicks to the head and such. I think you might be happier on that road than the one you are currently on.
Lastly, the Macau video was just a charity event involving two popular martial artists to raise money. It was not real, nor was it intending to be. They threw a couple of shots at each other, that's all. Also, keep in mind, that he may have been the "head" of the Wu family name, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was the most skilled. Also, from the other side, the White Crane guy who a lot of people said didn't look good either was hit in the face too. Does that mean that all White Crane sucks? Of course not.
Generally speaking, it's the artist, not the art, who can "fight" better anyway.
Let's try to keep this on topic. This isn't the bash liokault thread.
Intelligent post TCC Student... I won't hold my breath for a similar response tho lol
So many misconceptions here.
So are we saying that the head of the Wu family has no skill?
Why would they stand in front of a crowd and wail on each other if it was just for charity? Do the Chinese really not mind looking silly? Here was me thinking that they hate to lose face.
No, what I think we are looking at here is what happens when you think you can 'spar' based on theory. It’s fairly clear that they had never gone full contact before.
I'm not going to turn this into a Wu v Kung Fu movie clip thread, I just think that any thread that asks what TCC should look like, needs to have a look at the footage.
How do we know this guy is the head of the Wu familly, and if he is, how are we sure that it is the Wu's of Wu Tai Chi fame?
Folks everything you ever wanted to know about that Macau fight is right here: It's a .pdf file, so you need Adobe Acrobat to read it. The article starts on page 3 under the heading "Battle in Macau."
Finally pulled down that 70.9Mb of the old film - mesmerising stuff!
I will be buying the 'History Tape'. Some of the best TCC I've seen.
I thought the pushing hand vids also very good. Thanks Chaps.
liokault - I couldn't get at yours, kept hanging, but thanks also for that chestnut you threw in : it was new and quite appalled me.
How not to do it.
Concerning playing the Lio clip... What I did was renamed it first. The filename was too long. I renamed it lio.mov and then opened up Windows media player. I think for some players the long filenames may cause issues. Also, try running Windows Update to get the latest patches and such from the Microsoft website.
Fug, you should take a look at the form clips on that site also. Especially the 1945 one. The form is done with much more martial intent. Very good work from the Tung/Dong family. Any Dong stuff in the UK? Just wondering.
Oh yeah, one last thing. On a positive note, I think as far a sparring session goes I thought LioKault did rather well, especially since the other guy was a foot taller and had a longer reach. Sometimes, I think the short guys have more of an advantage than we think; the word leverage comes to mind...
So can anybody point us to a clip which is 'authentic tai chi' and which looks like competent sparring/fighting against an opponent (rather than a cooperative partner or student) ?
Well, thank you. :love:
Its not that I am short, that guy was just freakishly tall. I think he worked in a circus or something
I think the only clip that I am not happy with is the one against Nate. I was so tired by that point that I was just falling over.
I'm not being nasty, and I haven't seen any of the clips you put up, but this is the crux of my problem with your premise of 'sparring' being a definition of 'good' tjq tbh - the following is quoted from Yang Cheng Fu's "Ten Essential Points" (my emphases):
I am sure you will not agree or see the validity of the above statement in context of this thread, but to many tjq practitioners the "classics" are the definition of good tjq and ability to fight should stem from the classics, not the other way round. By diligent practise of forms, neigong, push hands two man work and, yes, eventually, forms of sparring, one may eventually master the art and become an effective IMAist - but sparring from day one? Cart before the horse imo/e
Now if that is what you have always done, of course the views of myself (and others) will seem nonsensical, I practised more than 14 years before I seriously took up sparring practises (beyond occasional experiments of course lol) and though I struggled at first, I in no way regretted the waiting, I feel I am now becoming a competent MAist because of the development I put in first. (I do not think most people should take as long as I did btw - but it was 100% right for my [then] violent and aggressive nature )
An example of the quoted principle is that when I practise push hands I can go for hours and get more energised, when I spar, I get tired - this is because I have not yet crossed the bridge from playing push hands to fighting in an internal sense - does that mean I can't fight? Nope. Can I punch and kick, grapple, gouge, elbow, knee and butt etc? Hell yes! lol Can I use tjq to fight? NOT YET lol Am I bovvered? NO!!
But that is not really the point. No matter how great you are, someone will always be greater, no matter how you train. No matter how many great techniques, sparring bouts, victories, there will always be something you didn't count on. The real aim of taijiquan is to take boxing through taiji to wuji (no intent, no technique) - sparring may or may not take you there - if you get it right - practising the traditional way (and I'm sorry, but mainstream family tjq never historically focussed on sparring at an early stage in training as far as I know) stands a far greater chance of getting you there imo - it works for me anyway.
A little story. When I passed my driving test, I noticed a sticker in the window of the first car I bought advertising a jiu jutsu club. It turned out the car owner was a black belt and also a policemen and he ran the club. He was selling the car because he'd just got his compensation money through after somebody beat him up with an iron bar and he was buying a better car, so he didn't need the old one anymore...
You might say "huh, he must've been crap then, it would never happen to me" but do you really know that? Can you stop a knife or a bullet? Can you count on being lucky? Can anyone?
And lastly, does having an aggressive, competitive mentality get you out of bad situations, or into them? I haven't had a serious fight since day one of tjq, I'm proud of that. I've had people try it on and I've talked my way out or walked away. If I'm ever forced into a real fight, I'll just go for it and give it my best, but I'd rather not bother with it. I used to get into fights regularly and some I'd win and some I'd lose. So what? The only fight that counts is the one you're in and every one carries risks. I'd rather avoid gambling with my life or anyone else's tbh
Anyway that's my pov - make of it what you will
I'm going to bed soon, so I haven't got time to fully address your points TJB, but if Liokault wasn't demonstrating proper Tai Chi, could you please show us some 'real' Tai Chi against a resisting opponent. It doesn't have to be a clip of you, it could be anybody who's ability to martially apply their Tai Chi you respect.
P.S. criticising somebody on the basis that they got tired after an extended session of grappling and sparring with several people doesn't seem fair (or realistic. nobody has infinite stamina, regardless of what they train in or how hard they train).
I think alot of you guys are a bit too hung up on the style factor.
While i havent seen the vid as it craps out on me, if liokault says he is practicing taichi, well there you have it. As long as he knows where his tai chi is. I know my hung gar doesnt characteristically look like hung gar, but i know where it is in my sparring, and thats what counts. And it if it works well, why not?
Personnally, from what i gather of the tai chi classics, yielding, softness, redirection, etc (general kungfu principles really). All these are easily applicable if youre on the defensive, and/or your opponent is set to kick your ass. None of these really do happen often in good sparring, which might explain why taichi sparring seems like a mystic concept. (Well in my case, i may get knocked around, but no one of my partners really wants to seriously hurt/cripple me). Being defensive doesnt entail staying passive and reactionary either. It entails getting progressive distance between your opponent and youself.
Morihei ueshiba explained that everyone has a sphere of influence, and at the edge of it is where he is most vulnerable (or something of the kind).
Its really quite true, because as you/ or your opponent creates more distance to basically semi-retreat or avoid you, you run a real bigger chance of overcommiting yourself because you have to first of all bridge a considerable distance, and still be able to punch him with a sizeable force.
Thats exactly when your opponent can simply sink lightly with one hand to make you fall with no effort. And at this rate, you see the punch coming miles aways (perhaps because you keep stepping away as he punches).
Myself, i find this mode of sparring absolutely lame. If youre the aggressor (because your opponent's plan is basically waiting on you), youre basically chasing a person that baits you into a trap. I really really find this mode of sparring detestable when its forced unto you without consent.
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