So what should Tai Chi look like?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Baggsy, Jan 18, 2006.

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  1. Choices

    Choices New Member

    If i would think that everyone who says: My style is teh true style, would ruin TCC for everyone, then there would be just as little to debate/discuss, as your claim. Forcing people into arguments, which will gain nothing only increase frustration and resentment towards other styles. And no offence mate, but i do pickup some of your frustrated vibes here and there. You see things one way, accept it, and accept others view aswell.

    Last time i checked going against the flow, aint tai chi.

    And also to answer your question: Grandmothers need to defend themselves, being the main target of simple muggers of course.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2006
  2. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Please point me toward where I have ever stated that 'My TCC is the only real TCC.'

    What I may have said is that the training of others is lacking, and I truly believe that to be true. I don't however relate this to style. I have met (yes and fought full contact) with other TTC styles (Zong Ding springs to mind) that have impressed me, as well as seeing teachers of my lineage turn out rubbish.

    I am not forcing anyone into anything. I am trying to make you question what you do. More to the point, I am trying on this thread to make you question your idealised view od TCC. But i'm not frustrated.

    Can't play what game?

    If you have never sparred then you can't spar.

    If you have never spared you have no place critiquing a video of someone else sparring.

    If you have never worked in a free non compliant form, you have no place defending unrealistic, idealised views of TCC as it is applied.

    If you have never sparred, fundamentally, your art is a dead one.

    You don't know the difference.

    This time last week you didn't know what EMA meant.

    Last time I looked this was a MA forum. There is a reason I do not post on 'hippy' (for want of a better term) TCC sites.

    If people want to do a form and a bit of light push hands for health or for fun, I am all for that. But as soon as the people who are just doing the health related side start thinking that they have a 'whole' martial art, I have a problem.

    Once more:

    How often do you spar?
    How many people proficient in MA from out side of your class have you ever sparred with?

    Lets try to build up a picture of why you think tcc is what you have idealised in your mind.
  3. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    ranting again... :rolleyes:
    Have you ever questioned what you do, I wonder.... :D
  4. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Not only do I question what I do, I let others question what I do, under pressure, away from idealised 'nice theories.'
  5. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Master Wm. Chen's son has done TC for years,and fought in the ring.
    Now- is he doing TC in the ring?
    If he is using TC mechanics,methods, I'd say yes,even if it is in a limited forum confined mostly to striking,so there won't be any pull down or roll backs like in the form.
    In the ring,he's going to LOOK pretty much like everyone else when executing.
    So,how many here can look at a fight vid and tell if someone is using TC in their body,if there's p'eng,or gee in that shot?
    Chen himself was a pioneer in contact sparring.Would Chen then be considered doing EMA even tho' he was certainly using TC methods in this training?Or,to put it this way,if Chen touches you and then uproots you,or if Chen steps in and punches you,he's still using TC methods,just different expressions.In one,he picks up your weak angle and center when he touches and then emits,in the other he emits without the prelim touch.If he uses the same body method to emit in both these instances,what's the difference?Still seems like TC either way to me.
    I wish Sun had never popularized this IMA term.So many systems of China have very important internal components without which they wouldn't even be the systems they are.There's internal training and external training and most all systems have both,in varying degrees of emphasis.All these terms do is cause division and hair splitting.The only measurable difference are the body methods TC,HI,and PK use,and some of those are used by other systems.
  6. Choices

    Choices New Member

    Let me just step aside then.
  7. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Miss that point entirely.... :rolleyes: You really have no more idea about how I train than I do about how you do, do you? (de-doo-doo lol) :)
    What I'm saying is, would you ever consider exploring a different aspect of tjq training, like some of the stuff I do, instead of dismissing it out of hand? I've tried "hard sparring" and I think it has questionable benefits for tjq - but I would never say "don't do it" it just doesn't suit me personally - I wouldn't rule it out tho...
    I also think you are being unreasonable in your comment that nobody from here came to your throwdown (with the implication we're all scared of you or something ROFLMAO :D ) tbh - you gave about a week's notice and it is (for me) a long way from Rochester to Oxford at short notice and I have a lot of weekend commitments. I would need 3 month's notice for anything like that to be do-able for me unless it was in kent or south or east London...
    And, actually, I said before that I might well come to a throwdown in the future m8 - that's one of the reasons I wanted to watch your clips on bullshido, I want to see what it is you do and whether I would consider it worth trying... I still can't get the clips to work, but I'm trying...
  8. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    I agree totally with the second section of this quote, but I do feel that there would be very few, if any, health only taiji players that would claim to be practicing a complete martial art.

    Having no martial-ness in your practice will also stop students from getting as much health benefits as those who do explore the martial practices.

    Now we come to the first portion of the quote.

    If you have never sparred, it doesn't mean that you can't, just that you might not be that good at it. You can still critique sparring (hell this forum/site is full of folk critiqueing things that they have never done!). It is true that the criticism should not be given as much weight as from someone who has sparred, but someclips can clearly show a mis-use of application/principle. I have seen sparring clips and some looked pretty good and I could see the principles in use and I have seen others where it was purely brute strength against brute strength. Counter to the principle of taiji; strength against weakness. Be soft against hardness, hard against softness.

    Then we need to decide what not compliant testing can be. Is it just sparring? Personally I don't think so.

    A final note. My sig used to have this quote from TT Liang:
    If all you rely on is books, best not to have books
    If all you rely on is teachers, best not to have teachers.

    essentially you have to learn it yourself, you cannot be told what it is and understand imediately.

    But I think the quote could just as easily be written as follows:
    If all you rely on is strength, best not to have strength
    If all you rely on is hardness, best not to have hardness.
  9. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    As I remember it Max Chen also trained and competed in boxing as well as kickboxing.
  10. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    It means that you WON'T be good at it.

    It also means that your ivory tower ideas about how 'your' TCC would look if you sparred remain intact.

    By all means, put some gloves on, contact a kickboxer over the internet that you have never met, and we will see how it looks.

    Hardness is used because few are 'perfect' masters. When we find someone who can spar like an aikido demonstration I will go and learn from them.

    Indeed, but then we must decide what sparring is.

    In the bullshido clips for example, as my neck was still injured, every one agreed that we would not 'clinch' to much and avoid standing head locks. It was still sparring, it was still non compliant.

    Looks like 'ivory tower' is my phrase of the day.
  11. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    If all you rely on is weakness, best not to have weakness
    If all you rely on is softness, best not to have softness.

    Am I missing something ?
  12. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    Nope, not at all, and it has sod all to do with ivory towers. There must always be a balance. You can't rely on one thing.

    My opinion is that if you rely too much on hardness, you are not going to get the benefits of softness. Likewise if you rely too much on softness then you are still missing something out.

    Taiji: the dynamic balance of yin and yang, strong and weak, hard and soft.

    Focus too much on one aspect and you lose the balance. If you rely on one aspect too much what do you do when its not there? Give up? Run away?

    Not paying attention to the 'balance' means that you are not doing taiji, just a martial art based on some of the movements in the taiji form. You could just as well practice shaolin, or some such.

    I am not going to limit myself to believing that I need to be stronger or faster than my opponent. I firmly believe that good taiji should have similarities to aikido, in so far as O-sensei Ueshiba could totally control opponents have his age and twice his size. It wasn't strength, or speed, or mystical ki/chi, just excellent understanding of the principles of the art.
  13. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    just excellent understanding of the principles of the art and a life time spent training in arts that would test him, as well as being a rough bugger and fighting a lot.

    Its been about 24 hours and no one can put up a vid that shows what they feel real TCC should look like against a non co-operative opponent. As such I declare that the bullshido clips are exactly what it should look like, and that you bunch of puff's know no better :)
  14. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    TJQ is both soft (internal) and hard (external). Yes it is an IMA, but not always only internal part is used! You must master also body mechanics to develope a full potential.

    TJQ and other IMA, like Aikido, have many in common. However also IMA are not only "body mechanics", they also uses internal energy/power.
  15. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    Why should I. or anyone feel the need to justify myself to you if this is the level of your responses?

    It is my firm belief that you would not accept anything that was not exactly like that shown in your clips so there is little point and no benefit to be gained. You go and play your silly games and I'll go and play mine.

    I do agree with some of the points you've made on the forum, but then you start talking tripe in the next breath. I may put my taiji on an ivory tower, but you too have pigeonholed your stuff.
  16. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    I'm not talking just to you or to anyone specifically here.

    I have been pointed at and have been judged as doing something that is less than TCC. I respond by asking people what they feel (in a similar situation) real TCC should look like, and to provide some evidence to back it up.

    I see nothing unreasonable about this. Any ideas about your 'ivory tower' that this thread has caused you to question can only be a good thing.

    Now to move on.

    As no one else can post a film of what they think TCC should look like, let me throw this old chestnut back into the fire.TCC v White Crane

    Show me where the head of the Wu lineage in the 1950's had such great skill! I know they are dead and we shouldn't talk badly of people who are in no place to defend, etc, etc, but I could kick the arses of both these the same time if need be.
  17. tccstudent

    tccstudent Valued Member

    First of all, the regular Windows media player will play the clip. Just open up your Windows media player and do - file - open - under media type (drop down box) choose "any file" - then double click the filename. At least it works for me....

    As far as sparring goes, I use to occasionally (but not too often anymore) mix it up with a boxer friend who is quite talented, and it ain't that easy for me to play by his rules (those hook punches can hurt too!), but imo I don't think I get that much out of it due to the different ideas in our training. He "mainly" trains for powerful punches and I try my best to train for powerful whole body power that can emit at any point (at least at this point in my training).

    As far as a boxer/kickboxer goes, In a TCC context, I find it's better to play defense with them (especially since a boxer doesn't kick or do any chin na type stuff). I believe I would be practicing more within the function of TCC if I try to evade, neutralize, push, or connect/execute with him as opposed to standing toe-to-toe and trading jabs and powershots. After all, the jab/powershot/heavybag thing is not what I train. It really is two different things imo, and two different expresssions. Yes, on the physical level you would kick, punch, grab, etc (most likely I am still in this phase) but when someone develops themself to a higher level, and the mind is involved in their action, I believe it would look quite different. Actually, you may not see much at all, because at first touch it could be over. Or, at the least, the opponent would be on the ground.

    Let us also keep in mind that no matter how much your non-cooperative opponent spars with you it still ain't real life and death fighting, or even a "very" threatening situation. In some of these instances, you may be surprised what you come up with when you're in a real live threatening situation. Just my two.

    BTW, this is a total BTDT thread, so why do I even bother? I must be very bored here at work today...
  18. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Its not life and death, it is non-cooperative in the extrema, it does show you what your really able to de, it does show what you really cannot do, it does mean you have to have something 'real'.....all of the above are just a few of the great reasons to spar.

    Also, you spar with please post a vid.
  19. tccstudent

    tccstudent Valued Member

    Sorry Lio, I have no video. I really didn't think it was important enough to tape it. :) Even if I did and you saw me sparring, and I'm not at a high level than what would that really prove anyway? I do think sparring does have some merit of course, and we do some open hand sparring in my school occasionally, but I don't believe you can train the soft and yielding skillz of TCC by hitting bags and rolling around on the floor. Also, I dont agree with your contention that sparring necessarily shows you what you can do and can not do. Maybe in certain contexts you are correct, but in others you are not. If I am sparring a boxer for example, and somehow get to the outside of him, tie him up and throw him to the ground, does that prove that I am a better fighter than the boxer? Not really. What it does prove is that the boxer doesn't have any chin na, sweeping, and throwing skillz. Like I said before, two different things; two different expressions......

    One last thing, non-cooperative to the extrema you said? How is that? To me, that would mean if you're down on the ground I would stomp on your face with my shoe. Also, you admitted yourself that before you started sparring in that clip there was to be no clinching because of your injury. Again, how is this non-cooperative extrema?? Just askin...
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2006
  20. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Why the hell would you want to yeild if you are punching? If you have a MA that has a punch involved in it, at some point you need to be hitting a punch bag or something similar.

    As for rolling on the floor. I am sure that bjj and ground work adheres much more to tcc concepts than you would believe. I just do not know enough about it to say where.

    Yes, it would prove you are the better fighter (unless it was a fluke).

    In the same way that if the boxer finds he can punch you in the face at will, with you being able to offer no resistance, it would prove him to be better.

    In sparring, both sides are tested.
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