I figured this would be better to break off into its own thread than to keep straying off topic in the animal techniques thread here http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49228. There's all this talk of more stuff... the teaching of an animal specialization at master level, that there's a 3rd part to sahm bahng cho hyung (that even KJN Harmon apparently isn't privvy to), with the 4 sword types there are 6 forms each (and we pretty much only see the first form of each type), and the list goes on. The image projected is that there's SOOO much stuff in Kuk Sool but we only get a small fraction of what's in the system. Basically, things most of us will never see nor know nor practice -- I mean, if KJN Harmon isn't getting this stuff (as far as we know), our chances are pretty slim. So it makes me wonder... what's the point? I mean, sure it's good to have some sort of curriculum all the way along, I don't question that. Then there's always that mystique of "secret techniques" that lure and retain some folks. But if Kuk Sool was created to preserve the martial arts history of Korea, then how well can that history be preserved if only a select few know the whole deal? And is there anyone besides KSN that knows the whole? Does In Sun Seo? Does CKJN In Joo Suh? KJN Sung Jin Suh (especially since he's the heir to the throne)? I mean, if they're all on a plane and it goes down, all that knowledge is lost forever. What if KSN had a heart attack tomorrow morning? Is this really the best way to preserve history? to horde and protect it, only telling a select few? KSN said he's written a lot of books (to someday perhaps be published), and then there's the fabled 5 books KSN received from his grandfather. But again, if they're all single copies, or just manuscripts and drafts, if they're all hidden away from the general populace, and then there's a fire at the Tomball ranch... what good does that do towards preserving all this history? And as well, we all know you really can't learn a martial art from books, so while books are a good supplement, it's people actually knowing and teaching that makes it possible. Preserving knowledge in a book is good, but it'll only go so far. Or is the desire to preserve history a bunch of hooey and it's all about making money? I know this notion has been tossed around these forums at times. No disrespect meant to anyone, but it just seems to me that if one wants to truly preserve history, the best way to do that isn't to horde knowledge and keep it secret from everyone but to spread and share it all far and wide. Granted some of that is done given the fact there are the hundreds of schools and thousands of practitioners over the many years of the Won's existence. But 100 years from now... is that all there will be? Will part 3 of Sahm Bahng Cho Hyung be lost to the ages? Will anyone ever see the 4th straight sword form? What will Kuk Sool be?
I completely agree with everything you say. Kuk Sool Won is full of secrets that should become common knowledge. The fear of losing these techniques and forms is something I have thought about extensively. I believe that when one is ready they should be able to learn the next set or form, and not have to wait until arbitrary testing. The Korean Family needs to let up on the keys and locks and let us in. If it is true that this third part exsists and KJN Harmon doesnt know it...that quite honestly scares me, for it will be lost. We need to open the doors, my personal belief has always been, in my years of praciting, trainning, and teaching, that if an indiviual is ready for a tehcnique set, form, or whatever, I will teach it to them. Or if they are really inquisitive about a certain "adavanced level set" I will teach it to them. That way the knowledge is shared. Kuk Sool Won is turning into a Caste system where only the Korean Royalty (Suhs) get the best knowledge, treatment....and money, yeah I said it! The seminar this year was strong proof of this. KJN Alex Suh said that only the people at the seminar were allowed to practice what was at the seminar, that is Bull Sh*&. They do that so people will spend their hard earned 50 bucks on their seminar. That is an example of knowledge I will and do share, all my students are privy to the sparring set number one. The ones who want to be anyways. In fact, I think we should open up forums and discuss advanced tactics of higher level sets like Pyuhng Soo and Chul Sa Jang. Free Knowledge!
For the average student whether or not there is more stuff is irrelevant because they will have a plenty hard enough time mastering the curriculum as it is taught today. If I ever start to get the feeling that I haven’t learned something in a long time, the quickest fix is to video myself and watch it. After I am done crying and destroyed the tape, I go back and practice more. I am no where as good as I think I can be on the stuff I am already supposed to know. Another thing is that I can’t help myself but try to be creative and make some stuff up for myself. This is a huge time sink. I think it is natural that after you have been practicing for a while, you’ll want to make stuff up for yourself. If you are really good, like KJN Harmon or KJN SJ Suh, then you will be lucky enough to share what you created with others. But this could spiral out of control quite easily. How many forms can you really be good at? I think a very important question is this. Is it worth it to learn a form or technique and not master it? Another good question is. How good should one be at something before the next thing is learned? In short, my opinion is yeah he has a lot more stuff he could show, but we’d all suck at it because we’d be overwhelmed. I may not believe all the history hype. I think the mysterious 5 books from grandpa are just the Muye Dobo Tongji. But I do think KSN is a genius at what he does.
This is a good thread. It's true, there are some forms out there that I really want to learn someday but they just don't seem to be in the syllabus anymore. Until very recently there was stuff over there in the US that we didn't have here. Things seem to be more in line now though. There is a 2nd spear form for instance that has never made it over here. I have seen it done in the past and it's on the Leavenworth video on youtube. Some people know it but nobody does here. In an interview with KJN Alex and SJS in a magazine over here, they talked about the future of Kuk Sool and KJN Alex said that there was a 'plan in place'
I wasn't saying to teach everything all at once to everyone...I was saying that the select few who absorb and practice meticulously and extensively deserve more material. It does eventually become hard to practice it all though.
Some of it was probably political at first. Not wanting more of Kuk Sool to be revealed in the US and other places than has been revealed in Korea. Sometimes I wonder how much of the extra stuff we see was made up by the practitioner and how much has come from KSN. There are a multitude of sword forms that have been demoed in Korea, but some are just variations of Juhng/Yuhk guhm.
Alex KJn said during seminar that ONLY if you have your instructors permission you may practice what was taught at seminar, also one thing Ive learned from KJN Harmon It's ultimatly up to the instructor as to what he/she wants to teach, and when. Like his Juhl bong hyung I know of only a handful of ppl who know it, I know before he started teaching me it, he said" This is not to be taught to anyone without my permission", though I don't teach ANYTHING without KJN permission anyway.Anyway back on subject, If your instructor teaches you a higher level technique/form/ anything, you obviously have their permission to practice it. Maybe you just misunderstood what he was sayin?Maybe not.
As to losing the knowledge of KSW, or hidden tech/forms/whatever, I know KJN has old pictures of KSN doing all or most of the curriculum move by move, in his study.
I agree with this. But could he really teach it to the select few and still maintain a large org. People tend to really get upset when they don't know something and someone else does. Particularly if that other person is of lower rank. I have seen this happen. It causes big problems. The people who don't learn the material tend not to look at themselves and ask why they haven't learned it. I think KSN set the curriculum to the average of the people skills practicing at that level. I think that bit with only those attending seminar getting to practice the sword sparring is bull as well. I learned it without attending a seminar. I think the best way to fight the feeling of the caste system is don't buy into the more is better lie. More is more, better is better.
Also look iat it this way, YOU payed for seminar,YOU did the extra practice, why should someone else get it for free. Like private lessons, one student who may be able to afford them, and another can't. Is it the first persons fault that they can get 1 on 1 training, just because they can't.And ofcourse the person with 1 on 1 training will promote/execute/ perform better or faster, Thats what they are paying for. I know both sides of the arguement bc I have been on both sides, but one shouldn't worry, you'll be taught it when your instructor deems you are ready. If not, It's simple (atleast in houston) change schools.
Maybe I'm naive or something, but I can't believe that KSN and company would hold onto the knowledge and not have a plan to preserve it... As far as higher level stuff not being taught except to a select few or seminar goers...this makes perfect sense to me. I believe there is a passage in the Bible (in Matthew chapter 7, I believe) that sums it up well and goes something like this- "Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces."
I'm sure there's a plan (it's good to hear that from KJN Alex), it's well... I guess just like all those other things it's just one more thing we're not privvy to.
I imagine some will be in the further volumes of textbooks that KSN mentioned he was working on, at seminar. I think he said that volumes 4 and 5 were already completed, but not yet published, and that he was working on further volumes.
I know I heard KJN Harmon say that the 4th text book was in the final stages of the publishing process. The fourth book has 3rd and 4th dahn material in it. And just like the others, all techniques will have detailed PP and striking pictures.I think he said it would be ready sometime by december 2006, latest by may 2007.I personally can't wait.
For the seminars, I have to disagree. If you meet the requirements to be allowed to attend a seminar, you have been deemed worthy of learning the material. Then, it just becomes a question of money, location and/or scheduling. There needs to be a level of trust here. Trust that if you are able to attend a seminar, you will. There shouldn't be an assumption that many will not attend simply because they would rather learn for free later. Sure, that's going to be true of some, but then shouldn't it fall to the instructor that did attend the seminar to make the judgement as to whether the student should be taught? If the BBs are not trusted to make this judgement, I see that as a problem. You can't expect to grow the art/organization over the long term (which is clearly a goal) if you aren't willing to delegate that level of authority. That said, I'm really not an authority on the politics of KSW, and I do understand there could be other reasons why things are done the way they are. I'm just basing my opinion on what I do know.
Every year, around the summertime, Kuk Sa Nim and accompanying instructors travel to as many (US?) dojangs as they can, to present a seminar. The topics vary from year to year, as do the requirements. Much of what I have learned in seminar so far has been things that I also learn in other classes... and those parts, I don't see good reason to keep entirely hidden. But on the other hand, I don't think that I was qualified to teach my friends staff spinning 1-5 as a white belt, even though I was introduced to them in seminar. I think that any of my fellow white belts, who didn't get it in seminar, should have to wait for either the right weapons class or brown belt class to learn those. But there is also much in seminar that is not taught elsewhere. Kuk Sa Nim's lecture seems to be seminar-unique, as do some special events. Two years ago, they brought a monk from Korea to teach meditation. I think individual schools may choose to do additional seminars to focus on some aspect, but that's different.
