I've included quite a bit of evidence to show how shorter, more intense workouts are better for fat loss than longer low intensity workouts. While you can definitely find a lot of useful information here and there online and through fitness magazines, I don't recommend them as a reliable source of current information on exercise science and what's being used "in the trenches" by the best coaches out there. I encourage you to keep looking into EPOC and the long term fat loss effects of anaerobic workouts. I never have proposed that X is true because I say it is. My arguments has taken the form of X is true because human physiology, numerous solid studies, and the world's greatest coaches all support this conclusion. I could always be wrong, but since my arguments are based primarily in human physiology, which our understanding of when it comes to basic things like energy systems work probably isn't going to change much anytime soon. Did you read through the links I provided? I'm curious what you found invalid about them. There is an upper limit to how much power one can produce with the aerobic system, and it's abysmally low. It's nothing that would win a fight, that's for sure. How long a fight lasts in total is not the determining factor of what energy system is used, because boxers don't dance around at a low intensity for 30 minutes nonstop. Take tennis as an example. People often assume it must be largely aerobic as well because they watch Wimbledon or something and the matches go on for hours. But in a couple hours of a tennis match, there may be 15 minutes total of actual volleys and exertion. During a volley the players are SPRINTING up and down the court for a few seconds until someone scores. Then they rest while the next play is set up. Even though the total match is a long time, the game is just interspersed anaerobic intervals. Fighting sports are very similar, though the force produced during those intervals is even greater than in tennis. All of this is explained in a manner better than I could in the various articles I referenced.
Are you saying that you don't need the aerobic type exercises anymore, Sacrostein? I would agree with icefield's assessment that you need both, especially if you are out there for 10-12 rounds, like tkdGu says.
That's exactly what I'm saying. That's what all of the articles I linked say, and I also was surfing through the H&F Resource Library in the archives and I recognized an old Health and Fitness FAQ that Knight Errant and Ad McG put together years ago. From the section What should I do for cardio?: Cardio for martial arts is geared more towards the phosphagenic and glycolitic systems, i.e. shorter, more intense periods of activity. Shadowboxing is a very effective way of doing cardio for martial arts. Other methods are interval training, sprinting, skipping, etc. For somebody who needs to fight 3 minute rounds, running 5 miles in the morning is a REAL waste of time. Shadowboxing is probably the best cardio you can do for MA. And bagwork. And skipping. So these really aren't that bold of statements. The information has been around for years, in the archives as well as other places, it's just that not everyone is aware of it. I'm not saying that aerobic endurance is completely useless, though it's pretty close as far as lasting in a fight is concerned. I'm saying aerobic EXERCISE is useless, because you will improve BOTH your anaerobic and aerobic energy systems through anaerobic exercise, but the opposite is not true. Aerobic work makes you good at aerobic work, and that's it. It'll help you in a fight about as much as spending 3 hours a week learning to wittle wood would. Say that 5 times fast When you see a fighter "gas out" in a fight they haven't ran out of aerobic endurance, they've run out of anaerobic endurance. They still are able to fight, but everything is slower and they aren't able to produce enough force to end the fight anymore. That's because they're using their aerobic system (cause their anaerobic capacity is tapped) and the aerobic system is used for long durations of very low force production. Aside from all the science and physiology behind this, I've seen it myself in person when I work with a marathon runner for the first time on some boxing. Even though these people can sustain aerobic output for hours at a time, they end up puking after about 3 hard rounds on the heavy bag because their aerobic endurance does not help them with anaerobic work.
recent studies have shown just how important the aerobic system is in even short duration events like 200 and 400m sprints More and more, we are understanding importance of the aerobic energy system, even in sports that we used to believe were glycolytic in nature. The 400m for by the way, turns out to be somewhere between 40-50% aerobic, depending on which research you look at these days. Even a 100m sprint is 15-20% aerobic! You are totally wrong saying such events are "without significant aerobic involvement" http://www.athleticscoaching.ca/UserFiles/File/Sport%20Science/Theory%20&%20Methodology/Speed/General%20Concepts/Duffield%20Energy%20System%20contribution%20in%20Track%20Running.pdf so if events of 1 minute or yes are close to 50/50 when it comes to aerobic contribution what is an event that is close to 30 minutes in duration?
Ok intervals/shadow boxing seems like a plausable solution, but you can't deny that road work is extremely beneficial in making weight. This is a very relevant consideration. Not many athletes fighting weight and walk-around weight is the same. 5 miles sounds about right for a run to lose weight. The pace you run in 5k(3.1 mi) or less isn't actually the best for burning fat. That's what I've heard anyway...
This is a very interesting finding icefield, and it's funny because it jives with my experience in track and field. We had about 6 sprinters on our squad, training in mostly 100 to 220 yards (yes it was yards back then) sprints and explosiveness drills, etc. The distance squad ran from 440 yard dashes to over 3 mile runs in their training. One day we had two sprinters injured so they threw a couple of the middle distance runners in (440 and 880 yard guys) in the 220 yard dash at the track meet. Guess who won? The two middle distance guys beat the other sprinters. Why? They had much more stamina at the end of the race. A fight might last two minutes. That is like an 880 yard dash, so yes, you need an aerobic base of stamina to cope with it.
yep more and more studies are showing how important the aerobic system is, heres a few other points i would like to make firstly the aerobic system can generation a fair bit of power, marathon runners can run at a pace of 13 miles an hour and can keep this up for hour after hour, that is hardly slow or not very powerful The current world record holder in the 1500 track event is a Moroccan named Hicham El Guerrouj with a time of 3:26. As described in the book Healthy Intelligent Training by Keith Livingstone, Guerrouj’s training is very similar to Arthur Lydiard’s training, a metric ton of ’strong aerobic running’ (essentially intensive endurance) topped off with small amounts of speed work and intervals. Now, do the math on that, a 3:26 1500 is the equivalent of 13.7 seconds per 100m. While that certainly won’t win any sprint events, that’s not slow and donates a fairly powerful aerobic engine. And he does it 15 times in a row which is something no pure sprinter could do. The same individual has run a 1:47 800 which is 13.3 seconds per 100m done 8 times in a row. Not sprinter speed but certainly not ’slow’ in the sense that most throw the word around and it certainly donates a fairly powerful aerobic system. As to the role the aerobic system plays in MMA and boxing, this is taken from Lyle McDonalds excellent 9 part article series on endurance training: The following is also taken from Lyles articles and shows another reason for developing a strong aerobic system: So having Having a bigger aerobic engine ends up having two impacts: You can produce more power without producing acid in the first place When acid is produced, the body can metabolize it better Keep in mind that aerobic training does not just mean steady state work at low heart rates (130-150bpm for example), this is just one aspect of aerobic training (and a necessary one if you need to build a base) threshold work at or about the point where your aerobic system starts to fail and your anaerobic system takes over is important if you wish to improve the power of your aerobic system and this can be hard gruelling work. This work does not just mean road work or machine work, road work and cardio machine work of course allows you to easily monitor distance and power output which are very useful in allowing you to see progress made, but shadow boxing, shadow grappling etc can be used as can pad work, bag work, wrestling drills etc or a mix of the above as long as you stay within the prescribed heart rate zones for the set duration of the session As for what system is being used in a fight the easy thing to do is get your threshold tested and then stick a heart rate monitor on and spar several rounds, see what your average HR is and how it correlates to your threshold and go from there. Another good test once you have your threshold is to see how much power you can generate in watts at that heart rate (most cardio machines will have a power output function), and then after some serious aerobic training re test and see what your power output has changed to at said heart rate.
Now in regards to steady state v intervals for fat loss again ill use Lyles articles here, Ill let everyone draw what ever conclusion they want from that article
Icefield I want to thank you for taking the time to post all that information and research. Lyle McDonald is definitely a brilliant mind in the industry, no doubt about that. I've already been coming to respect you and your knowledge just from a handful of posts I've seen from you, but now my respect for you is tremendous. I'm chomping at the bit to discuss this with you, but you did leave me a small book and I will not be able to respond with just a paragraph or two. I'm leaving tomorrow morning at 4am for a week long trip, so I'll have to wait to get back before I have the time to respond but I will certainly get to it. I have a couple questions about the first study you published that will help make sure I don't respond in error. Highly trained athletes were used for the study, but I don't believe it mentioned what sport they were from. Do you happen to know? That would certainly affect the results of the study. Do you know if special treadmills were used that go at higher speeds than the average treadmill? Most treads top out at around 12mph or so if I'm not mistaken. Some thoughts to mull over as a "taste" of my response: sprinting on a treadmill effectively takes the posterior chain, primarily the glutes and hamstrings, out of the equation. Perhaps exercising without using the most powerful muscles on the human body isn't the best way to see what energy systems would be used in a fight? Also, do fighters exert energy nonstop in the same manner as during a sprint? When I used to do 400 and 800m sprints, I never got to slow down and "size up" the track while I waited to explode into another sprint. This could possibly make it difficult to compare the effects of sustained sprinting to intermittent punching, kicking, and charging. I would concede that rolling around in a BJJ match, if you are staying relaxed like you are supposed to, is fairly close to this type of sustained energy output, at least until someone sees an opening and attacks. I'm at my last day of work and really shouldn't even be posting this much, but I really can't wait to respond in more detail. Thanks again, I'll catch up with you next week. Mad respect
Thanks I’m not sure if I am knowledgeable but I can copy and paste smarter guys lol and I look forward to your responses, strength and conditioning work has always fascinated me. Lyles work, Joel Jamison’s website and book, and Mark McLaughlin’s stuff over at elite fitness have really changed how I view S and C work. I’m not sure on what machines the tests were done or the sports the athletes were from ( I believe like the scond study I listed they were track athletes but not 100% sure, the following research was done by tabata on I believe ego bikes and comes to a similar conclusion: I agree the profile for MMA would be different, but I just find it interesting that sports previously thought to be almost wholly anaerobic are now showing to have a big aerobic component, and I imagine a sport that is not as all out and goes on for a much longer period would have an every bigger aerobic component. Especially where it comes to recovery between rounds and between alactic bursts, I tend to see MMA as alactic – aerobic in nature, brief bursts of extreme energy expenditure followed by longer durations at a (slightly) lower heart rate (Joel Jamison in his book on MMA conditioning has a profile of a 5 minute round of one of his fighters where he tracks there HR in reference to the fighter anaerobic threshold and it stays pretty much in the aerobic zone close to the threshold with brief flurries into the anaerobic zone and then back). I think part of the problem is people see aerobic training as just LSD running at what Lyle calls p*ssing around pace, this is only one aspect of aerobic training, and one that is important if you have a high resting HR and are used to only doing lots of anaerobic work (which is the position I found myself in a while back). But you can do aerobic intervals, you can be circuits that test the aerobic system to the max, its not just easy work. (I honestly think part of the problem is that some people who think they are doing anaerobic work are actually doing aerobic threshold work: circuits that last 10 minutes for example) Even coaches that seem to be against aerobic work have there athletes do it (either knowingly or unknowingly) Joe Defranco on speed days has his guys do an extended warm up that lasts about 30 minutes and includes dynamic stretches, skips, build up sprints, low frequency jumps, hurdle mobility drills etc, stick a heart rate monitor on these guys and you will see that’s in the aerobic zone for the most part. I have spoken to Martin Rooney a few times to get a better understanding of his methods (he is a great coach and always very helpful) and whilst he doesn’t believe in building an aerobic base for his fighters, he agrees that the 30+ minute warm up and the ladder drills/sledge hammer work his guys do are largely aerobic in nature, and the intensity of the hurricane work he has his fighters do was dialled back when he started tracking their Heart rates during sparring to more closely match these rates rather than just trying to get their HRs as high as possible for as long as possible. Actually the best advice I ever got was from him, he said to wear a heart rate monitor for all training even weights, when I did this I started to realise how anaerobic heavy lifting was and how much it can effect conditioning (Not new to most guys I bet but I’m slow like that lol)
Sorry for the extremely delayed response, I hope I'm not resurrecting a thread that's too old at this point or anything. My wife was laid off after I returned from my trip and I haven't had any free time on my own to do my usual posting and reading. She's got a job again now, so I can sit down and catch up on some online stuff that has fallen to the wayside. Anyway, enough about me. I did not mean to state that anaerobic activities have no aerobic component. I acknowledge that the aerobic energy system is always active, from zero activity to 100% maximum effort. While the aerobic system does contribute to any and all activity on some level, it's anaerobic efforts that end fights, and therefore I believe anaerobic endurance is critical if you want to be able to not only keep pace in a fight, but be able to still knock someone out 10 minutes into a match. Even if we grant for the sake of argument that the aerobic system contributes as much as 65% of the energy demands in a fight, that still means that when a fighter's anaerobic systems are gassed out he's hitting with only a fraction of the force he's capable of producing. That's what a "gassed" fighter looks like to me, a guy who can keep plugging away with his aerobic contributions round after round, but can't end the fight to save his life. I contend that fighting is anaerobic in the same way lifting weights is anaerobic. A full body weight circuit is going to light up the aerobic system, but when I pick up 300lbs off the floor that is anaerobic, and lifting weights isn't about breathing hard in between sets, it's about the execution of the reps themselves. Similarly, fighting isn't about pacing around and recovering between flurries - the fight IS the flurries, it's the explosive attempts to bust someone's face open. If your anaerobic energy system is gassed, you're not fighting, you're dancing with gloves on. As for intervals and fat loss, I think you're focusing a bit too much on caloric burn and not on the nutrient partitioning effects of explosive anaerobic workouts. Primarily the effects they have on insulin sensitivity, which of course can positively affect one's body composition without changing total caloric intake or expenditure. Also, unless I am mistaken there isn't much research on the cumulative effect of hard anaerobic workouts a few times a week, week after week. While the effect of a single workout may not be striking, isn't that a lot like quoting research that shows one hard squat workout doesn't add significant leg mass so therefore squats are effective for building leg size? The fact is, coaches are using intervals to get people shredded all the time. There is scant research on the subject and it rarely if ever actually replicates what's being done in the real world. So if the research doesn't support the results, do we stick to our interpretation of the incomplete research, or assume that science has not yet explained what practical experience shows to be true time and time again? Regardless of all this, I think the bottom line here is that to best prepare for your sport, you want to emphasize a lot of sport specific drills to have the best carry over, and avoid the "****ing around pace". It's really the ****ing around pace that so many think will magically give them explosive power endurance that I have been arguing against, whether that was clear or not. I've been "out of the loop" with this convo for weeks, so if my thoughts have strayed out of focus let me know
