In most cases I'd try to keep my cardio under 30 min and as intense as possible. For me to go an hour on a bike/treadmill it would have to be slow paced and that's not good for muscle mass.
I do my cardio the same way as you, although I will occasionally go for a long bike ride. If I'm training slow enough to be able to read a magazine, then I'm not training hard enough to make it worthwhile.
I appreciate you voicing a dissenting view, no need to apologize. You may disagree with me, but I'll state again that all the science I have seen on the subject (certainly not everything there is under the sun) does AGREE with what I'm saying. If I have to choose between scientific research and what I know about exercise science and the subjective opinion of someone who likes the elliptical, you're not leaving me a tough choice. If you have any evidence that shows diet + low intensity aerobics is worth the extra effort over diet alone, I would be all over that. Everyone knows a pound of fat is approximately 3500 calories. Even if you spent an entire hour on the elliptical, you'd be lucky to burn 400 calories (I'm being pretty generous with that amount). So if you were on that thing EVERY SINGLE DAY for an hour, you would burn a fraction of a pound a week. 7 hours of effort for less than one pound of fat loss!? Are you kidding me? Would that help? Yes. Is it a complete and utter waste of time when you analyze the cost to benefit? Absolutely yes. My clients work out no more than 4 hours a week, most of them only 2 hours a week, and they average between 1.5 to 4 lbs of fat lost a week. Why would I bump them up to 9 hours a week just to make that 2.4 to 4.8 lbs? That's a complete waste of anyone's time. And keep in mind, just as chrispy emphasized, you get better at it over time and it gets easier and easier. So that hour may burn 400 calories at first, then after a few weeks you have to go for 90 minutes or longer to get that same 400 calories. The elliptical helps people lose fat the same way walking to the bus station, vigorously washing your body in the shower, walking a block with a bag of groceries, and other activities that hardly burn anything but contribute a small amount to total activity levels. There aren't a lot of people saying that they lost weight by eating the right things and brushing their teeth vigorously 3x a day! It would only be slightly more ridiculous.
I don't know how easy you go on the elliptical but in an hour I burn about 1000 calories on it and have done so at that pace since early June. That is not to say i do that every day now... in fact now I only use the elliptical to warm up, but I still go at that 1000cal/hour pace just only for 20 minutes. Honestly as someone who did lose 80 pounds total to suggest I would have lost that much weight while brushing my teeth and eating right is insane at best. Experience lives right here, I'm not going on theory or whatever, I did it. The was nothing easy about it.. I basically ran on the elliptical for increasingly longer periods of time, upping the difficulty and burning more and more calories. Of course there were other changes in the lifestyle to achieve the overall goal. Once I was at a decent weight then I changed the routine, added other programs and such. Also I think there is a distinction to be made between low impact, and low intensity. There was nothing "low intensity" about how I approached my time at the gym thanks very much.
You must be pulling that number off of the machine itself. Those are entirely inaccurate, an attempt to make people think they're getting a great workout so they'll keep using the product. I don't know what else to say about that, it's commonly known among coaches and trainers that you never bother with what the machine tells you you're burning. They're not just off by a little bit; they're not even worth considering. Science > Cardio Machine Caloric Expenditure Estimations You're committing the fallacy of association. It takes the form of "X occured at the same time or after Y did, therefore Y caused X". "Significant fat loss occured at the same time or after spending a lot of time on the elliptical, therefore spending a lot of time on the elliptical caused significant fat loss". It's an error of reasoning, and a very common one among exercise enthusiasts. Probably THE MOST common one next to appeals to authority (Arnold did it, so if I do it I'll look like Arnold...) You're right, there is a distinction between low impact and low intensity. The elliptical is still both however, no matter how you slice it. Aerobic exercise is the lowest intensity of exercise possible aside from doing nothing. If aerobics aren't low intensity, then what is??? I don't want to diminish your accomplishments at all Chrispy. You seem to think that because I said the elliptical sucks for fat loss that your 80lbs lost is somehow diminished. That's not the case at all. As someone who has lost nearly a 100lbs myself (used to weigh 300lbs) I know very well how hard you had to have worked and how much discipline it must have took. Your statement that doing aerobics on the elliptical gave you the body and stamina of an athlete is frankly very insulting to athletes! You're comparing yourself and your elliptical workouts to people who push their strength, speed, explosive power, and anaerobic endurance to the max week in and week out. To put yourself in the same category as people who deadlift twice their bodyweight, can sprint 400m in less than a minute, can jump 10+ feet from a standing start, and perform other amazing athletic feats because you can ride the elliptical for a long time without feeling super winded is very demeaning to people who know how to train correctly. To sum up: it's awesome you lost 80 lbs by eating better, the elliptical wasted dozens if not hundreds of hours of your time for minimal results at BEST, and NO, being good at the elliptical does NOT make you an athlete, or even athletic. It makes you good at the elliptical and that's it. Do you own stock in some leading elliptical machine company or something? :thinking:
I had a big reply here.. but it's ridiculous. You are convinced I wasted my time and am good at nothing beside moving my legs in a oval pattern. I have physical, statistical, anecdotal and performance based proof and results that tell me completely otherwise.
As I mentioned before, I'd be willing to look at any evidence or proof you have of the claims you've made. If I'm missing out on a big fat loss tool, I need to know for the sake of everyone I train!
Fair enough JaxMMA. But we are not all trying to build muscle mass. For myself, the goal is to stay lean, so I am on that bike for almost an hour. The first 25 minutes is slow/moderate, which is when I read. Then I amp it up real hard for the last 30 minutes all out, then rest, then all out. Believe me, when I get off that bike my heart is pumping and I am sweating. It keeps me lean, I don't need the muscle mass at my age.
Frodoucious, the trick is to do it in an interval-type way, slow and fast. During the slow parts I read, and during the fast parts I suffer. lol, but it works.
Now I'm not saying that all I have done is the elliptical, lets keep that straight. I'm saying that as far as cardio training all I did was the elliptical. Since June I have been on trainer designed programs using the weights and such at the gym too, but for cardio, it's the elliptical training wise (and leg day is a hell of a cardio work out - but my increase in stamina and such predated 'leg day'. My results come to me in many forms. My trainer also trains the varsity teams for the college that the gym I go to is attached to. And according to her, I do things that varsity athletes 10 years younger than me (I'm 31) cannot do, things like ab workouts and numbers of burpees without stopping and pushups during fitness assessments and whatever else - those are her words, not mine. And frankly when each time we do a fitness assessment and my trainer goes "holy crap! I have not seen results like this ever" I take that as a good sign. I play (ice) hockey, I played before our season ended in March just as I was beginning to work out... when I was able to play a few games in a summer league I had only been doing something more than the elliptical for about a month. I had gone from someone that was out of breath and gasping for air on every shift to someone that hardly had to breath heavily at all. I could take 5 minute shifts at a higher pace than I could take 1 minutes shifts only a few months before. Now with the addition of muscle building programs I do have the explosive speed I was hoping for. I've gone from a 3rd tier utility player, to a top tier one. If I was in this shape when I was younger I would have been on my university team I have no doubts. Is the elliptical solely responsible for this? Of course not. However, it played a HUGE part in what became of me throughout this process. Would I have ended up at the same results replacing the elliptical with running everyday? or on a bike? or doing a fitness class or whatever? yeah maybe, probably even... but using it as a tool worked for me. And I'm sure that had something to do with my approach. Yes I have seen people lollygagging along on the elliptical, going at a pace that doesn't work up a sweat.. I've seen people reading magazines on tread mills and stationary bikes too. I can assure you, if I had been going at that pace I wouldn't be saying that ANY machine had helped me out at all. I used the elliptical in place of other things for a few reasons. Knees being one and I live in Canada and it was good to have something I could do rain or snow or shine indoors.
I do interval train when I'm doing cardio and if you interval train properly (with a martial arts fitness related goal in mind) you don't need to spend an hour doing it.
Yes. Even short durations of pyramid training / shuttle runs can be a really good workout and there isn't really long enough at one pace to get bored. I also do this on the ergo rower as part of my warmup before lifting. I haven't seen anyone read magazines while running or rowing but am prepared to be amused if you have
I used to go for long bike rides before, but time won't permit me now Most of the time when I do slower paced cardio at the gym I try to keep it under 30 minutes. If during that time I'm able to read, it's too slow - not that there's anything wrong with going that slow. Understandable We all have different goals. Some good discussions in this thread... I think if you do interval training right you WON'T be able to do it for an hour
Absolutely agree, if your goals are to get fit for martial arts, then intense intervals are the way to go, that is not to say long slow workouts cannot be of benefit. I think they are a good way to introduce people to exercise without frightening them off, but to maximise time and benefits intervals are the way to go.
It's nearly impossible to be lean in any significant sense of the word without much muscle mass. Even with a little bit of fat, if you also have a little bit of muscle then your body fat percentage will be relatively high. I have to burst this bubble to skinny fat guys all the time who are at 20% or higher BF even though they're a small 160 or less. Also, anaerobic workouts make you leaner than aerobic workouts. Sprinters are on average significantly leaner than endurance athletes across the board. When you use fat as your primary fuel (aerobic exercise) you train your body to STORE FAT as it's primary fuel. When you use glycogen as your primary fuel (anaerobic exercise like JaxMMA mentioned) you train your body to STORE GLYCOGEN as it's primary fuel. Since glycogen is primarily stored in our muscles, you end up with a lean physique and full muscles, assuming the diet is good. What makes you think muscle mass isn't a big deal as you get older? A study at Tufts university found that muscle mass and strength are the two biggest predictors of longevity. Read that again. More than your cholesterol, blood pressure, triglyceride levels, bmi, bodyfat percentage, or anything else you might think was the biggest predictor of how long a human would live, it turns out the strongest, most muscular people are statistically the longest to live, all other things being equal. So I would say, good sir, that you absolutely need muscle mass. You just don't realize it I appreciate you taking the time to respond, but I didn't see any of the "physical, statistical, anecdotal and performance based proof" you mentioned. So far everything is just anecdotal. And while I don't know anything about your trainer and can only speak in generalities, 99% of fitness professionals don't know anything about how to train people effectively. The odds aren't in your favor that you're paying someone who knows what they're doing. If I remember correctly you alluded that you warm-up for your workouts with cardio. Is that correct? Did your trainer also tell you the elliptical would be a good start because you have bad knees? If so, that tells me unequivocally that you have a terrible trainer, and therefore I can't help but discount her statements as to what amazing shape you're in. You may still be a total badass in the gym, but I can't determine that from what a poor trainer has to say about you. Simply put, bad trainers don't know what amazing shape is, and they don't know how to get anyone into it. Since I'm asking you for evidence, it's only fair I post at least one of the studies I've been alluding to. Kramer, Volek et al. Influence of exercise training on physiological and performance changes with weight loss in men. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 31, No. 9, pp. 1320-1329, 1999. This study used three groups of people. One group was on a diet, another was on the same diet and did aerobics 3 times a week starting at half an hour and working up to just under an hour. The third group was on a diet, did aerobics, and also incorporated resistance training. The group that only ate better lost 14.6 pounds of fat in 12 weeks. The group that ate better and did over 36 cardio sessions lost one more pound of fat (15.6 lbs average). The group that ate better, did cardio, and lifted weights lost a bit over 21 lbs of fat. One extra pound for THREE MONTHS OF CARDIO. Hey, a pound is a pound. But that's 8 hours that could be better spent on an infinite number of things.
My trainer did not suggest the elliptical at all. My trainer trains athletes at college My trainer teaches the fitness courses (i do not know the names of them or whatever) for the relevant programs at the college that the gym is linked to. I'm pretty sure she knows what she is doing. as for stats... how about June 10 2010 (my first assesment at the gym after doing 3 months of stuff on my own) BMI 24.4: (in march it was 33) waist circumference: 93cm (March it was 122cm i measured that myself though) sum of 5 skin folds: 88mm Sept 2 BMI: 21.9 waist circumference: 81cm S5SF: 39mm Since September my BMI has gone up due to gains in muscle mass. Don't worry though, I totally expect you to shoot down these measurements as BS Those are the ones that have had the most change.. but I've gone from being a fat guy to 6 pack abs, huge muscle endurance improvements and so on. But I really get the feeling that unless I sign a pro contract by the end of the week anything that has been done you are going to find an issue with. That YOU clearly are an expert personal trainer and therefor unless I'm at your gym training with you my trainer is a moron. I have my results. I have seen measurable goals achieved and passed. I've seen my performance in competitive sport increase exponentially. I don't need your approval to feel good about it, the work I've done, my trainer, my process or my results.
I don't see a point in discussing things further if you're going to start to play the victim. As someone who is so keen on good results, I'd think you would relish a conversation over the possibility that you could be doing things even better than you already have been. You seem to interpret "Congrats on transforming your body, here are some ways you could exercise even smarter for better results!" as "You are a complete failure because you didn't do everything perfectly". Take it down a notch, you're reading too much into what's being said here. The elliptical sucks, you don't. Your trainer probably sucks, but you're still awesome. George Bush was a terrible president, but you know what Chrispy? You lost 80 flippin' pounds. Who cares if Dubya sucks. Stop taking everything so personal! This kind of self-pity is probably what got you so out of shape in the first place, don't succumb to it. You can ALWAYS do things better. Always. Always. Always. Quit being such a stick in the fitness mud my friend. The fact is, it takes one to know one. You're not a trainer, so you don't know what a good trainer is. I can't confidently say what makes a great doctor, dentist, lawyer, accountant, sky diver, or any other profession that I am not in. But I can confidently say what makes a great trainer. Your profile says you're in tech support. I actually used to be a 300lb technology specialist! I would repair computers, offer support, set up networks, etc. I think it's safe to say we both know a really stupid techie when we see one... agreed? Your trainer doesn't know a good techie from a bad one, and you, my hockey playing Canadian computer nerd, do not know a good trainer from a bad one. All that being said, those are some good looking stats. They don't demonstrate anything with regard to the efficacy of the elliptical, but they definitely demonstrate that you've made some tremendous progress. What else was on the assessment she put you through?
I'm totally not of the victim attitude, and what made me a big guy in the first place was that I ate lots and did little But aside from that, I'm responding personally because honestly you don't know boo about my trainer and I think it's pretty silly to suggest she sucks without any kind of personal meeting and exchange don't you? I really do doubt that the college would be paying her to instruct people and train athletes, along with her personal trainer job at the gym if she was no good. I'm very content to stop there on that subject. I did not do a fitness assessment when I started to go to the gym in March, I wanted this to be something that I did for myself. (Now though I REALLY wish I had!! I weighed 103kg or so (about 228lbs and had a BMI of over 33. From March 11 to June 10 pretty much all I did was the elliptical then mid may I just used a few random machines to do weights. Starting on June 10 I first began a full body work out, then we switched to different days like upper and lower.. focusing on muscle endurance, I being the nerd I am told her she was looking to build Batman not The Hulk. We've been through a number of programs and only recently have changed to the idea of purposely building muscle mass, and that was due to my own resistance I can say. I did not want to 'gain weight' and had to get over that idea that putting weight back on meant i was getting fat y'know? So keep in mind that March 11, I weighed 103kg, BMI over 33, and god knows how awful the rest of these stats would have been! ......................10-Jun...13-Jul...2-Sep....12-Nov Heart Rate.........48.........37.......47.........49 At rest BP Systolic........127........113......115......121 BP Diastolic........56.........60........67.........77 Weight (kg).......77.3.......72.5.....69.3......72.5 Height (cm).......178........178......178......178 BMI..................24.4.......22.9.....21.9.....22.9 Waist Girth (cm) 93...........85.5.....81 no visible abs 83 (yay i have abs now without flexing!) Skin Folds(mm) Triceps..............20...........9........6..........5 Biceps...............13...........6........5..........4 Subscapular......21.5.......14.5......12........11 Iliac Crest.........24.........13.5......10........10 Medial Calf........9.5..........8.5.......6.........5 So5SF............. 88..........51.......39.........35 Push-ups..........20..........26.......35.........60 Trunk Flex........39.5........37.5.....41.4......41 Vert Jump (cm).270.........272.......278.....280 (this is the reach I had, not that my feet were that high off the ground) I'm not trying to convince anyone I've found the magic bullet to weight loss in the elliptical. I'm saying it has totally worked for me in helping to begin and continue what I set out to do. the numbers on it may be way off base, but since I used the same machine nearly every time, they were consistent data. They were numbers that I continued to push higher and while I went to the gym with no guidance to begin with it was something I could see improving along with the improvement I could feel in what my body was capable of. Are there better ways, no doubt, I'm 100% certain that I could ask you, or my trainer, 'hey what's a better way to do a cardio workout?' and I would get all sorts of info about it. I have by reading what's here already. But the 'best' exercise is the one that gets the guy like I was off the couch and doing something consistently I think. There are always going to be better ways and new theories and all that. But what I did, worked for me.
I guess you disagree with the "takes one to know one" notion then. I'll respect your wish to cease discussion of the subject, so I don't see why the rest of your post was necessary if you didn't wish for it to be addressed. Again, congrats on the fat loss. I wish you the best in your continued progress.
I meant discussion on whether my trainer sucks or not, not in total. And yes I do disagree with the notion of 'takes one to know one' for instance I don't have to be a professional hockey player to know that Crosby is better than some fourth line scrub, or I don't have to be a good actor to be able to tell when someone sucks at that too.
