So about bone density/densifying (sp?)

This is somewhat of a mystery to me.

I understand the concept behind MT guys kicking with their shin bones against objects (hard or semi-hard) to increase the bone density.

But how does it actually work? Can I bump my knee against a table, let it heal to full and it's a tiny bit stronger than before? Is there an immediate effect? Not one that's noticeable, but one that could actually be measured with a before and after microscopic photo. Does it mostly just work with shins, or does it work with fists too?

Is there an age limit, that at a certain point your body just stops doing this? Does it only work when you're still growing?

I ask because I heard that I can improve the bone density of my shin bones, by kicking a heavy bag. I am primarily a kicker, so it makes sense to me to want my shin bones not to snap when I get checked by an opponent. But I also want to have a bit of in-depth knowledge about this subject, so I can think for myself what might not be a good idea.

In any case, thanks for reading and double thanks if you help me out.

 

I'm not a doctor, so I can't qualify anything having to do with bone density. However, I know my shins are much tougher through kicking a heavy bag as well as kicking others shins during sparring. You can absolutely have tougher shins by just using them! I wouldn't suggest kicking down banana trees.........
Don't hurt yourself and allow yourself to heal when you get injured.

 

repeated impact causes micro damage. The damage gets healed by adding calcium, thus making the bone denser. Hitting your knee against the table is a short sharp impact which does not put much stress on the bone, but which does harm the soft tissue, which is why it hurts like hell.

Afaik there is not an age limit, but of course you can only do this if you have no problem with calcium of course. If you get age related osteoporosis, your bones are already getting de-calcified and then this might not be such a swell idea.

 

Hitting a heavy bag is good, but even just hitting thai pads will do it for you

EDIT:


Double edit: Wolffs Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolff's_law

 

Thank you for replying. So this would work for the fists as well?

I don't intend to punch a wall, but punching the heavy bag barehanded is something I occasionally do to check my form and angle. But I haven't repeatedly punched the heavy bag with my bare hands, because it tends to cause friction on the skin of my knuckles. Apart from it actually working to increase to bone density of my fists, is this something you could see having beneficial effects?

How about lasting benefits? In particular the shins, but also the fists. If I successfully increase the bone density of my shins to the point where I'm satisfied (dunno what that means), is it a lasting benefit or does it fade away over time?

 

Wolffs Law answers a lot of my questions about this subject. However, it is presented as a theory. I wonder if the science behind this subject fully supports his theory.

 

The scientific definition of 'theory' is a bit different from the everyday meaning of the word. Unlike the everyday meaning, a scientific theory does not imply that something is speculative. Good definition here:

http://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html

 

It's a theory in the same way Gravity is a theory.

 

In that case Wolffs law is awesome and I'll be sure to take notes.

Now I understand the difference between a hypothesis and a theory as well. I'm alive today for sure.

 

Yes and No.

Regular training to toughen your fists is what is required...Let me explain...

From Bare Knuckle Boxing experience...The fist is clearly a more complicated set up than the shin. In that it's a bunch of smaller bones working to do more complicated tasks.

What you're doing when you condition your raw fists is:

A) Getting the fists used to taking impact

B) Thickening the skin of your hands

With A) Impact - Your bones can become a bit thicker from hitting the bag bare-knuckle. Also your wrist etc will be able to cope with shearing forces better. Without breaking so easily.

As you say you use it to check correct alignment etc. And it'll be clear to all who do hit the bag - without wraps and gloves - that punchbags are really unforgiving to bad punching.

This is really important. As you possibly know most 'boxer's fractures' happen where the thumb meets your wrist.

If you build up a tolerance to these shearing forces your fists are less likely to 'break' at the most common points.

With B) Due to repeated impact the skin of your hands will thicken. Ideally it will feel - after about 6 months - like a fine set of leather gloves.

If you're doing it right you'll not get any pronounced callousing on your knuckles. It's just your fists will become like coping mallets - because you get the ability to keep your wrist perfectly still whilst hitting with power.

At first though you'll get abrasions and skin tears. After maybe 20 sessions (and the healing that goes with them) your skin won't tear anymore. And will start to thicken.

Build up to this slowly. And monitor for shooting pains. Depending on how many bagwork sessions you do per week. I'd strongly suggest you start with making 1 out of 3 a raw-handed sesh.

Gradually build the tolerance.

As long as you don't overdo it the benefits can be longer-term. Your shins will retain the extra density for years. Just that your nerves will become less 'deadened' if you don't do any shinning of the bag for a few months.

With your fists...As long as you use good judgement the benefits will be golden. The main thing is to refrain from doing loads of rounds.

Start with 5 minutes at a time. Then go to 10 mins per sessions. And at no time do no more than 20 minutes of raw-handed punching. Particularly if you are doing more than 3 bagwork sessions a week.

Good Luck

 

Great post, I really appreciate the input.

I feel pumped up to hit the bag for some reason haha. I usually hit the bag like once or twice a week, so I guess I could use the second day to go bare knuckleshin style.

 

I could try and give a lecture but I'm sure many other people in internetland have described it far better.

Google 'bone remodelling'. This is what is happening at a cellular sort of level.

It works with any bones in response to stress, but it needs to be be a repeated stress. So bumping into a table won't cause much effect, but years of training can.

 

Did some bare knuckle bag work today. I got too excited and threw a full powered right straight and it ripped the skin off of 3 of my knuckles. :bang:

Luckily it was only the uppermost layer so it's not that bad.

But yeah, I should take it slow.

 

Keep in mind that with regards to increasing bone density higher impact is not better.

High impact, such as punching or kicking with full power will leave you with stress fractures that will weaken the bone.

So even when working on a bag, if you are going to go full power it's really a good idea to wear decent gloves.

 

note: bone is porous on the inside. it's the porous part that you need to thicken. thickening the outside does nothing for the bone's actual resistance, and can cause bone spurs that can then break off. this is why kicking solid objects is generally stupid. if you want stronger bones, do bagwork, padwork and heavy weight training. makiwara training is also doable if you're very sensible about it or have someone to coach you and to chew you out if you do something dumb with it, but i'd recommend that you get a very solid tsuki first and research how to build a good makiwara if one is not available (the wall ones are fun but of extremely limited utility, and not always properly constructed anyway).

 

Ah thanks for telling me, I definitely would have started going full power at some point.

 

I'll look into that, right now my garage is jammed full with stuff for my brother's new house. Once that clears out (next month) I can start thinking of putting extra training tools in there.

 

Also, I have to say that this forum freaking rocks. So many knowledgeable people in here.

yay for smart people!

 

a further point: your body needs time to repair and reinforce itself. bone hardening via impact is no different from exercise in this respect. you don't magically grow stronger each time you hit; you're literally causing mechanical damage to your tissues, and to repair them you need to eat and rest.

 

Yeah, I at least knew about that part.

It's like muscle training. You break off muscle fiber by lifting \weights, then with rest your body restores the muscle fiber with stronger stuff to match the training.

Or something like that. I assumed it worked the same with bones.