Skill or Strength

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Judderman, Jul 7, 2004.

  1. Krazy5051

    Krazy5051 Valued Member

    That video did not help.

    It basically shows an old man loving every bit of demonstrating his locks, throws and takedowns on what seems to be his favourite student who allows it and does nothing to prevent it.

    Impressive to see how perfectly it should be done though.

    Yours in martial arts,

    Kid
     
  2. Florida Warlock

    Florida Warlock Banned Banned

    That pretty much covers it.

    If your opponent is twice as big as you in muscle, you're going to have to get a damn good shot early in the fight.

    I'm guessing that on the fourth page of this thread we're completely off the original topic-? Oh, no, my bad- seventh page, and talking about who could run faster.
     
  3. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    good lord i hope you arent trying to use that video to prove anything. that was a demonstration, not a fight. i can do that to people who arent resisiting as well (although I would be less flowery about it)
     
  4. Griff

    Griff New Member

    Yes size, mass and weight are a factor everyone thinks speed and strength but who ever gives in to pain loses?
     
  5. Fist Of Chaos

    Fist Of Chaos New Member

    :)

    Mind clearing what the situation you had in mind would look like, and maybe all the people replying could choose better what would be more decisive.

    Basically you got 2 main scenarios.. The streets, and fair fights, clean and safe, more or less. You can't be the best in all areas you know.

    If it's the streets, nothing matters. Nothing at all. You can end up slipping on the wet road and hitting your head, dying. Anything can happen there and you can't pinpoint any advantage. Sure you know how to kick and all but you're wearing tight jeans and your nutz will get crushed if you try.. just an example ok? You can never tell what will happen out there, or where it's coming from and how, or even when... but certainly strong survival insticts, high moral and the fighting spirit of, say, a cornered tiger will get you through whatever that means! And of course if you just got out of your local McDonald's.. **** it, run!! :p :p :p :p :p Or you will throw up the moment your heart starts throbbing...See? Everything matters there. Uncontrollable environments.....ouch.. :p

    In fights like in a ring or during your belt promotion(if you got that), I believe a combo of good physical condition and skill along with a "winner's mentality" will help, regardless of the opponent.

    In the very end there's one thing you should keep in mind.

    If you think in the line of "What if a huge, skillfull, brutal, mid-20s aged person who knows internal/external arts and whatnot etc etc, attacks me?! Won't I be DOOOOOOOOMED???"

    Guess what.. you ARE DOOMED before he ever thinks of attacking. Ever thought of that?
     
  6. Yashka

    Yashka New Member

    Bad analogy. He's got both strength and skill.

    Hey, Tang Sou Tim and Kagebushi, how do you define skill? Does versatility come under it?
     
  7. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Look folks, couple things. The fact is strength is an important factor and often can make techniques that shouldn't work work. And anyone who uses the excuse that skill can overcome strength as an excuse to avoid strength training as part of their overall training mix is deluding themselves.

    As far as the pain thing, while having a high pain threshold can help, it doesn't stop one from being knocked out. I can take a lot of pain. I've also been ko'd three punches into a sparring match.

    Lesson in all of this: there is no general panacea. You need skill, you need strength, you need luck. To say that one is more important that another is missing the boat. But to assume that they all are equal is also missing the boat.

    - Matt
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2004
  8. bostonninja

    bostonninja New Member

    Has anybody ever grappled a person that out weights them by 100lbs +. It sucks, their weight and very mass make it most diffcult.
    Gracie vs Shamrock. He had to wear him out before anything happend...
    Before you BJJ start talking about how perfect your style is try it out on somebody that size.
    Can it work, YES! But so can any other style, with the right training.

    It is not the art but it is the artist....

    Yes skill will over come strenght, I have done this myself, and had it done to me. :p

    Something to think about a little know Martail Artist named Bruce Lee said something about TIMING. Maybe you should look into that strange skill set??

    Just a thought...
     
  9. Pete Ticali

    Pete Ticali Valued Member

    strength vs. Technique is the wrong question

    HI
    Sorry for the bold title. I didn't mean to imply you were wrong.

    In my opinion, Strength equals strength, but Technique plus Speed equals power. Lightning fast reflexes that execute precise technique create a focused energy that emulates the same effect as strength.

    Sounds like a lot of bull, right? Well it would be bull if it was tried by someone who has not required him/herself to hone their skills to the max. Think of it as Sonny Liston Vs. Ali. The bull might swat mightily, but I assure you the bee is probably going to win. We all learn "techniques", but we forget they are merely "drills" to teach us the principles or theory behind the drills. The original question and each of our sincere answers all make the mistake of comparing apples to apples. Strength vs. Techniques is Apples to Oranges. We need to adapt and create a fruit salad.

    Each situation ditates a uniquely different adaptation. If I intuitively see a chink in the armor, I might go inside feeling I could strike the proper target to nulify the attack. If I intuitively see no opening, I will retreat to draw the bull towards my more suitable position. THese things only happen as planned within the training hall. It is up to us to use them to discover our own particular strengths & weakness'.
    In the immortal words of Hollywood........ (lol)
    Best Block......No be there!

    just my .02

    Pete Ticali
     
  10. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    From my experience in Kung Fu, Choy Lay Fut in particular.

    If I try to hit someone with a Sao Choy with power, but it is perfectly executed, it will do jack.

    On the other hand, a simple cross with ample strength will be more powerful.

    So, technique is vital, but there MUST be strength behind the technique.
     
  11. slayed

    slayed New Member

    From my own perspective, we cannot look at the world in ones and zeros, strength and technique is a mean to an end. That end is to make you a better martial artist... That is all, I think because people choose one over the other is because 1. We don’t have the time or energy to go to the gym and train 24 7 like the older generation of martial artists do. 2. Currently martial arts are really compartmentalized in the older days where swords and fist rule the land, and now we have the great equalizer: the gun. 3. the other reason why people chose one over the other because many of us do not have the DNA to be that strong or be that powerful, u can argue that going to the gym "alot" or "frequently" will make you powerful granted that is true. But a person will always hit that limit that many of us cannot cross. Thus in order to substitute strength many people chose: technique.

    My Personal opinion on this matter is: there is need to be a mix of both technique and strength. Remember now we are in this perfect world only technique and strength matters, we cannot give our soul to dedicate in one or the other. Because, at least reading up on several books on the physics of striking, speed, my conclusion is that it is hard for a smaller guy to knock out a bigger guy, yes granted there are things can be used to balance the equation, but is it not better to have the best of the both worlds? Personally I train almost everyday in my striking art, and soon BJJ and go to the gym at the same time. I find that again it is a matter of personal preference, to choose one of the other. But I train in both so I can use both technique and strength when I am faced with a dangerous situation and or when there is a call for me to use what I have learned and practiced.
     
  12. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I know technique increases power not strength, the point I'm making is that the more muscular power you have, the less good your technique has to be to generate the same amount of power. Technique improves the power of your attacks through physics rather than muscle power but both will do the same job. Yes, it is POSSIBLE for a smaller person with superior technique to win, but to say he will win every time is taking it too far. There are young kids about 12 years in age at my old TSD club, and some of them are very good. Does that mean that they could beat up some of the enormous adult male beginners? If technique always beat strength, you could teach a small child martial arts and enable him to defeat someone of any size. And what if two people of equal skill had unequal strength? The stronger fighter would win. I have known good martial artists to get beaten by untrained people because they put too much faith in technique alone.

    Technique and strength are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to have both and neither will always beat the other. If you want realistic, reliable, consistent fighting ability you just can't afford to put all your eggs in one basket like that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2004
  13. Bob1770

    Bob1770 Valued Member

    ??

    In my green opinion, proficiency, speed, power, and above all, confidence in yourself, your art and your technique will get you out of most sticky situations. But just in case, how is you 100 yard dash? I think if you train hard and train often, your techniques will become second nature. I loved the Hapkido video by the way. Sure, it was a demonstration, but do you doubt that little old man would do any less in a real situation, I don't. Using muscle requires you to become somewhat tense, which is the exact opposite of how to perform Hapkido techniques. I am learning first hand that if your tense and try to muscle the technique, it won't work, at least not nearly as well as if you are relaxed. It will also slow you down considerably. I'm not saying being strong is a bad thing, but it certainly isn't more important and the rest of the above, IMO. Besides, any respectable MA isn't going to start a fight anyway, so chances are that big strong guy that started the fight doesn't train to fight, do you?
     
  14. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    yep, thats the underlying principle to... well anything., if you want to get good at it.

    I certainly do. he may be a total hardass whos been fighting in the street since he was 5. or on the other hand he may simply practice these moves to perfection against a non resisting partner. I can pull off a perfect o goshi on people twice my size when they dont fight back, but if they are its a different story.

    shows how much you nkow about the application of strength in martial arts
    whereas if you are relaxed and use your strength throughout the technique it will have that much more power. in the very least, you can slam them to the deck harder for a takedown.
    false.
    depends. to a boxer, a wrestler, anyone who competes against others, it IS important. even in judo and brazilian ju jitsu, strength is very important.
    doing martial arts does not automatically unmake you an *******. i have met plenty of jerks who do MA.

    and as someone mentioned earlier, being strong opens up a whole new range of techniques unavailable to smaller weaker people. look at rampage jackson- there is not a lot of technique involved in lifting people and slamming them to the mat, but that doesnt stop him from knocking people out with it. same with bob sapp, he can simply powerbomb people with his overwhelming strength. you think that if he was the same size as most of his opponents he would stand even a remote chance in k-1 or mma?
     
  15. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I'm sure that he would be a reasonable adversary in real life, yes. But there is a world of difference between knowing moves and being able to do them in a fight situation. That video clip proved only that he knew the throws and armlocks. I've not watched the whole thing yet though, so I'll bear in mind I've not seen all the info yet. But unless he actually demonstrates using those moves in realistic sparring, I will retain some element of doubt as to whether or not he would "do any less in a real situation" and I predict that the technique would probably be nowhere near as effective.

    You do still use your muscles for hapkido techniques, otherwise there would be no movement. I know that sounds stupidly pedantic, but you do still use strength, it's just that you learn to apply it differently to how you normally would, i.e. you use physics rather than matching force with force, but you still have to use SOME force of your own somewhere in the equation. This means IMO that strength is still a very important factor in a fight.

    Like someone else in this thread said (apologies for not remembering your name, it was an excellent point) strength is always there. A strong person will still hit you hard even if, under pressure, their technique messes up and all they do is flail their arms. Strong people with bad technique are still very dangerous because they can often simply powerhouse through the block, counter, lock and throw attempts of a weaker person with better technique. That's not to say technique is meaningless either, otherwise we'd all just do weightlifting instead of martial arts lessons, but strength is still dangerous by itself and there's certainly no harm in doing both.

    I don't get what you mean here, what's the connection? I'm not being critical, I'm genuinely asking :)
     
  16. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I was trying to avoid using him as an example, but yeah I agree :p
     
  17. Griff

    Griff New Member

    I agree, but all things strength, speed attitude all have some effect. After all people only fight because they are confident they will win. Size strength are an advantage wether you do martial arts or not. Being KO'd is always a possiblity too.
     
  18. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I'd say so, yeah.
     
  19. Bob1770

    Bob1770 Valued Member

    Good points, but maybe my post was taken slightly out of context. I suppose I wasn't trying to imply that muscle has "nothing" to do with it, and where I said it will slow you down considerably, I meant the tension of trying to "muscle" a technique, not the muscle itself. THe last comment misunderstood, I am trying to say that it is highly unlikely (but I suppose it depends on where you hang out) that you are going to encounter a thug on the streets that is a highly skilled and trained MA. Maybe I live in a different world than some?
     
  20. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Nah you don't :p, I get what you mean now, yeah you're right. I think it's important to bear in mind that most thugs won't have done any training at all before we say things like "this is useless".
     

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