Skill acquisition/Skill application

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Smitfire, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I've heard a lot in this forum about the nature of skill in BBT, the Bujinkan and the various ryuha.

    How the "ideal" to which Bujinkan students strive is an effortless application of the techniques whereby the opponent is powerless to resist.
    A perfect culmination of body mechanics, timing and spacial relationships that takes minimal effort to be effective.
    According to most Hatsumi and some of the Japanese Shihan display this type of skill.

    Now...while I think this is absolutely the right thing to aim for and the correct ideal to aspire to I think it is unrealistic in reality.

    The reason I think this is that "skill" in something that is against another person like martial arts or fighting (being different to skill in something like painting) is not an absolute quality.
    Skill in applying martial arts or fighting always has to be in reference to the skill of the person you are fighting.
    There is a context to that skill.
    A simple way to highlight that would be to imagine one of the Shihan attacking Hatsumi.
    They can't both display this kind of "perfect" skill. One will have to lose.
    The skill of the other may mean that NEITHER can display such skill as it becomes a fight of attack and counter.

    Another way to think about it is to imagine a BJJ blue belt that in sparring pretty much has his way with a new white belt.
    He pulls guard, sweeps, maintains mount and chokes him out when he feels like it. It seems very simple and almost effortless.
    He is displaying a similar sort of "perfect" skill.
    Such a thing happens in BJJ gyms every day.
    And yet that same blue belt has a hard time choking other blue belts. And he rarely chokes purple and brown belts. Blackbelts in his club don't even end up in positions to get choked unless they want to work their choke defences.
    One day Marcelo Garcia does a seminar there and chokes everyone for fun.
    The next week Garcia goes to the ADCC's and gets choked out by Jacare.

    And yet...the skill of the original blue belt, that so effortlessly choked the white belt, stayed exactly the same.
    He's just as skilled as he always was.
    What changed was the skill of his opponents.
    The context in which he was attempting to apply that skill.

    I feel that this "perfect" skill idea of effortless application disregards the skill of the opponent.
    Your opponents skill is part of the context in which your skill must be applied and that can vastly change how well your skill comes out.

    Discuss. :)
     
  2. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    some of the issue comes down to the way koryuu type stuff and ninjutsu is structured as well as how skills are taught being core to the traditions of the ryu IMO

    as PASmith says, martial arts are highly complex, variable open serial skills that are eternally paced AKA they require a number of movements, rely on an opponents interaction and are constantly changing.
    But ninjutsu vids (which most, even PR, will say isnt representative of ninjutsu, just a few teachers) are skills taught in isolation.
    They are taught as closed fixed skills that are rarely paced by an opponent.
    http://www.brianmac.co.uk/continuum.htm

    i dont think skills in ninjutsu videos are taught as effectively as they could be but thats because its in their tradition to be taught a certain way.

    i think that's why their havent been as many great practitioners as boxing/BJJ/muay thai/etc
     
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What way is koryu stuff structured?

    Bit vauge mate.
     
  4. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    i remember having a conversation with you before where you explained that theres a lot of single/double/triple step stuff and not much in the way of pressure testing at lower levels because its unfeasible and develops bad habits of rushing in etc
     
  5. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Sorry, I can't remember what I had for lunch so I can't say. :D

    There is pressure but it's not jumping into randori right away, if at all, but of course each ryu is an individual so who knows what's done behind closed doors.
     
  6. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    yeah. sorry. i tried to chose my words as carfeully as possibly (hence why i referenced ninja vids) but i left the loryuu part in for some reason!
     
  7. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Nothing wrong with it, personally I find how the schools are structured and their aims to be fascinating.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  8. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I kind of pointed out in the Resistance is Futile thread that a part of the reason that people at an advanced level can do things that others can't is due a difference in ability.

    However, when pitting equally nearly matched masters together in a real confrontation, the idea that they would suddenly lose this ability and revert back to relying on strength or speed kind of defeats the purpose of trying to achieve this level in the first place and is an assumption some make due to their own lack of experience with people at this level.

    The whole point is to beat speed and power by using other things. If you can't use those skills on people who are faster or stronger, then what's the point in training them in the first place?

    The teachings in these kinds of martial arts(like the ones found in the Takamatsuden) goes in levels, the baser levels have to have been mastered and surpassed to get to a higher one. So to an extent these skills are absolute in that you don't lose them just because your opponent gets better. If you can concentrate and use will, then you can begin to start exploring not using those aspects when dealing with violence. "It hits," is a verbalization of this kind of thing but just because the other guy is good, you don't start going back to "I hit," in order to make up for the skill difference.
     
  9. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    I think this is reasonable in some regards, and unrealistic in others. You should expect skill to allow you to beat an opponent who is less skilled but stronger/faster/more athletic. The greater the gap in skill, the larger the deficit in athleticism that can be overcome. Whether it is possible to acquire skill of such a high level that athleticism is no longer relevant, I think is fairly doubtful.

    Using an art such as BJJ as an example: A 60kg BJJ blackbelt shouldn't have to muscle an 80kg BJJ whitebelt to apply a a technique. On the other hand, a 140kg bluebelt who is a olympic-level weightlifter will probably be difficult for a 60kg purple-belt to handle. Martial arts are an inherently physical exercise, and therefore physicality will always play a role. Using extremes as an example; no matter how much skill someone who is 4ft nothing and 35kg manages to develop, they will never be at a point where they could reasonable expect to fight 6ft 7in 110kg UFC heavyweight Travis Brown with disregard for the differences in size and strength.

    Physical attributes will always play a role in the outcome of fights. The nature of fights guarantees this. It is not unwise to focus on techniques that minimise the role that physicality has in a fight situation, but it is irresponsible to pretend that skill will ever allow someone to disregard athleticism completely. I wonder if it is a belief in the absolute superiority of skill over athleticism that allows people in non-competitive arts to believe that they are deadly masters of the martial arts even when they are so fat that they struggle to tie their shoe-laces.
     
  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Physical attributes do always play a role, and I guess what I'm saying is that the physical/mental attributes that allow someone to do what Hatsumi sensei and the shihan can plays a big role that can overcome other attributes that are generally thought to be the most important.

    You are missing the point also. We aren't talking about fat LARPers here, if you ever met one or shook their hand you'd understand this crucial but much ignored fact.
     
  11. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    I am a little bit lost now. What are the physical attributes that you are referring to? I was talking about athleticism which I would have thought encompassed most ideas of physicality such as size/strength/speed/balance/explosiveness etc. If there are physical attributes that you think are generally under-emphasised outside of a very small group of people, I would be very interested in hearing what those attributes are.
     
  12. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    in PASmith's post there is nothing more to be said. kudos!!:happy::happy:

    that's why i've posted somewhere here that MA is an external validation endeavour. results REALLY matter.

    we have many people saying: this old man(hatsumi or one of the shihan) can toss me around like nothing! pray tell: what is the skill level of the "getting tossed"? is it, as RP described, a fat LARPer? or is it a skilled killer? how much of their BEING (skill, effort, experience) is being used to COUNTERACT the said old guy's movement's/actions? was it fully(aka "with resistance) or nearly none(aka compliance)? when was the last time these old guys used their skills IN HIGH STAKES(possibly death, disability or injury)? against WHAT LEVEL of opposition(and no, i'm not talking of just competition. a hardened yakuza who already knifed 3 and just served his sentence AND HAS A VERY REASON TO HARM SAID OLD GUY is enough)?

    to tell the truth, i've met the old guys. i've heard their stories too, 8 of them. one i've completely believed in, 2 got me incredulous and scoffing (and in hindsight, outright fabrications) and the others were probably highly embellished (not that i blame them, memory is a funny thing in stress situations).

    skills (physical/mental) deteriorate with disuse. and they never progress further without challenge. when was the last time these old guys were challenged(they were probably challenged all the time by these fat LARPers! :D)?

    more importantly: these old guys, did they passed on these supposed skills to others? these "others", where were they challenged? against who (and more importantly, what level. teenage racist punks don't account for much in the threat scale unless you're a lady or extremely geriatric.)?
     
  13. garth

    garth Valued Member

    PA Smith posted

    Ok lets stick with that point about reality for a moment.

    My Question. You mention earlier about reality but how is sparring a reality?

    I've spoken about this before and it seems that people outside this art tend to compare ninjutsu against another martial art i.e. in the context of how a BJJ guy might do in the ring against a BJK guy.

    How is this reality?

    For me, and this is just my opinion but ninjutsu is a defensive art. Now I appreciate that that term is a whooly because people in other martial arts will say "Well my arts a defensive art too" but in Ninjutsu we don't defend by being faster, stronger, or even having better technique than the opponent.

    You see when it comes back to the "Effortless application" you have spoken about, this is achievable once the attacker makes his first attack. And this is the key, for when I say "Attack" I don't mean in a ring but out on the street where the assailant will grab you and then punch, or stab you or put a bottle in your face. Its not a competition where we square off and fight to a set of rules.

    Ninjutsu has specific kata to learn how do defend against a grab an punch attack. Its in the kihon, its covered by kata such as Danshi in the gyokko ryu, So yes the point is that if you grab me and throw a punch the kata should teach me to defend myself effortlessly.

    In fact in the art we have kata that cover most eventualities. The point is to be able to perform the solutions to these eventualities with effortless application, and these solutions we call kata. Then after we have mastered the kata we have henka, but that's different story.

    The problem is that to many people are plastering themselves on youtube without even mastering the kihon let lone the kata, and this does give incorrect impression of effortless movement. In my opinion Too many people trying to copy Dr Hatsumi.

    So if we are going to have this conversation can we please talk abut realism and not keep coming back to the artificial environment of the ring to compare ninjutsu to.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    :bang: you had to go street vs rules.

    :cry:

    What are your kata teaching? Are they all scenario based?

    Also if you want to discuss realism then why fall back on kata practice?
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I meant reality as opposed to theory not reality as in a real fight.

    In theory it is a laudable aim to train for and aspire to be effortlessly skilled.

    In reality that effortless skill has to be applied on someone else and that someone also brings their own skill level to the interaction.
    That skill level is part of the context and WILL effect your ability to apply your skill.

    It's a truism that can be applied to anything with a degree of "competition" invloved (and a real fight or SD situtation is a competition to see who's the best at applying their skill).
    Andy Murray could probably ace me with every serve and beat me without me returning a single ball.
    He can't do that against Nadal or Federer though.
    And yet his skill would not change.

    That paradigm applies to ring fighting as well as real fighting.

    I'm talking about applying skill in anything and used BJJ as a way to highlight how context dependent it is.

    Feel free to substitute "blue belt" for "bujinkan 1st dan", "purple/brown belt" for "bujinkan 5th dan", "black belt for "bujinkan 15th dan", "Marcelo Garcia" for "Doron Navon" and "Jacare" for "Hatsumi" if you don't like BJJ being brought into it.
    It still works to highlight how skill is dependent on opponent.

    It's like arts or people that say "we don't do fighting...we just aim to destroy the attacker quickly".
    Yeah...attackers don't let you destroy them quickly. They resist, they attack back, they counter, they take your best shot and carry on sometimes.
    Again...it's a worthy training goal that needs to be seen in the context of what the other guy can do.

    Note that not once did I mention speed or strength.
    Although they are also part of the context of fighting (it's a lot easier to display skill when someone is slower or weaker than you) I'm talking about holistic skill at fighting (however you choose to define that).

    What WOULD happen if one of the shihan attacked Hatsumi or another shihan?
    Double KO?
    Each neutralise the other and no damage occur?
    Or would it...as I contend, turn into a fight where either could prevail depending on a whole host of other factors (pain tolerance, bottle, aggression and yes...strength and speed too).
     
  16. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member


    excuse me, but how does ninjutsu/BBT TRAIN FOR SURPRISE? the dangerous guys one NEEDS to prepare for in SD preps things up aka "stacks the deck". it's not just chest-beating, monkey dancing around then he swings at you. he either blitzes or distracts you then deploys his weapons. HOW DOES KATA-CENTRIC TRAINING DEAL WITH THAT?

    AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHEN?!(cuz i've never seen it in my time in the buj)

    grab an uke. give him the LIBERTY to use either a jab or a cross. just the two of them. give him an INCENTIVE to hit you, say ten dollars if he manages to smack you. see how well you fare. can you apply well what you have learned?

    now repeat the same, this time get a guy who competed in amateur circuits. give him the same limitations and incentives. what's your result?

    now remove the limitations/all attacks allowed. see if you can handle the myriad variables possible now(before it was only two, a jab and a cross).

    now give him a plastic bottle, say that he's allowed to hit you with that. NOW he has a lot of options to choose from(and you have a lot to watch out for). now tell me again how does ninjutsu/BBT prepare you for that.
     
  17. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    The smart ones do it by having a nice cup of tea...


    :D
















    There's about three people who'll get that, isn't there? Ok I'll get my coat.
     
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    It's the same conversation all over again every time with different players, same pieces, same cannon aimed at you from across the board. Yet, people who listen might figure it out and people who don't want to will never get it. Ever. Period.

    So, some of the attributes I was referring to were explained in a lot of detail in the Resistance is Futile thread. How these things were trained and reached were laid out and explained in the QC in the Bujinkan thread and Sakki threads. How do you learn to deal with surprise attacks? Simple, get surprised a lot and see how you handle it. Then modify to handle it better. The godan test is an example of this ability(and no it is not an indicator of physical fighting martial skill, just the sensitivity and ability to move out of the way skill). The schools that deal with ninjutsu, ie Togakure, Gyokko, and Koto ryu in particular, are basically "What if," schools that deal with what to do if the guy gets the jump on you by grabbing(as mentioned already) you from the front, from behind, from various directions at once, and trying to do things like strike at you with a pointy thingy when you weren't ready or looking. In addition, the second level of techniques in Koto ryu are all basically sneak attacks, so you learn how to recognize some things through your own study of doing them.

    Now, if a person can sense your intent to attack and can respond on that stimulus, how fast do you have to be to hit them? If they can make you think that your attack has succeeded when it indeed hasn't, how is your strength or speed or strategy or athleticism going to help you?

    You may not believe that there are people out there who can do these things, but if you meet them you will find out. Again, these are people who have already trained for decades, have gone through different stages of development, have hands like vices and fists like concrete. You don't have to take my word for it, try them for yourself and find out. Not much else to say at this point, if anybody has more to add or wants to discuss something else along this vein, I'd gladly respond. Not going to rehash the same debate all over again though.
     
  19. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What is sakki?

    What is actually being "sensed" and how?
     
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Let us take as a given that such people exist.
    What happens when two of these people have a fight? When one attacks the other?
    You may think you've answered such things before but believe me you haven't.
    Not here or anywhere else.

    See how I've bolded the word "you"?
    As if I am asking how "I" may do against such people?
    This isn't about me.

    This is about skill per se.

    We can agree that skill varies from person to person. I'm arguing that because of this this mythical Bujinkan super skill that trumps all others simply cannot exist.
    At best..Hatsumi is at the top with the various Shihan coming close but still not matching him. And then a hierarchy below them of people like you, RP, that haven't quite got what they've got.

    Oh Dean...please don't go down that road. :(
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2014

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