The fundamental problem with this discussion is that Gary might not entirely understand what the Shobukyoku sets are. They were introduced to the Kukishin Ryu Shobukyoku school in order to teach the basics of the Bojutsu to the students there..That is the reason that the movements look the same as those done in the Hanbojutsu Book (Q. Chambers)...They are the same..But the waza are not the kihon..Just made up of them...Of course Hatsumi knows the waza...They are Kukishin..But there is no evidence that he specifically knows the set introduced after his teacher had set up the group (Shobukyoku). He doesn't show these basics..Never has...I'm sure he may have the book and be aware of them...But he teaches differently and doesn't use the shobukyoku sets to demonstrate what can be learnt in the waza. Kuji is often used in martial arts circles..It's inclusion in a name points to absolutely nothing...Especially in the Kukishin Ryu where I believe a lot of work is tied into the use of it..It is the same Kuji as used in Kuji Kiri....It is not rare and it does not mean that those waza that have the name in the title are the same..... Gary, I still don't see where you have shown that Hatsumi knows the Shobukyoku sets...Nothing has been said here to indicate that..Hatsumi knows the Kukishinden waza..Of course...And has demonstrated them repeatedly...But not the specific set referred to as the Shobukyoku forms...Only those who were after Kiba Koshira perform these sets because he was the man responsible for creating them for the shobukyoku...Not Takamatsu... I would be sure that Hatsumi can do these movements..As head of one branch of the Kukishin Ryu I would expect him to be able to do them perfectly..But he does not demonstrate them as part of his syllabus..I would argue that he believes it is better to teach the kata and then allow development on those rather than work harder on the kihon that the Shobukyoku sets introduce... Perhaps this is a reason that Steve's set looks so different...Maybe he just learnt the kihon used in the Kukishin Ryu as taught by Hatsumi and added the same names to them as those used in the Shobukyoku set..That seems reasonable as he may want to work more on kihon than Hatsumi does...He's never said that they are Shobukyoku right?So they may just be Kihon he formulated using the basics found in the Kukishinden Waza he was taught...Who knows.. This entire thread has been one of the hardest I have ever bothered to follow..It still makes no sense....But bottom line is that it's more fun to watch if you don't care either way.. Regards..