SKH Quest & Hatsumi's Bujinkan

Wrong again.

And it looks like George Ohashi has confirmed that Steve is in the dog house with Soke.

Kind of hard to say now that they are on good terms with that sort of response.

Kind of doubt it considering that he failed to make mention of it the last time.

 

Grimjack posted

Were you not saying on another thread only a week or two ago that you did not know what the TCJ was?

So you are accusing me of being dishonest. As you have seen the e email I sent, you know thats not true.

Is this all you can say. We know this, hence why the plaque was taken down. But I don't think its so much as being in the dog house that they have fallen out, just that Mr Hayes has gone his own way.

But the real issue here was that you wrote

Well I did that, and although you stated I was scared, I only wanted to know who to send the email to. Unlike yourself that dare not contact Mr Hayes, I contacted Mr Ohashi on the same day.

No didn't fear the answer, as i know that Mr Hayes is a truthful man, even though some people on here would like to hide behind their keyboards and say otherwise.

As for not getting ranks Grimjack it appears you are wrong as always.

I think it has been established that although the plaque at hombu has been taken down, and that Mr Hayes is doing his own thing i.e To-Shin Do, Mr Hayes it appears is receiving Cetificates for his students from Dr Hatsumi.

Now can i ask that the moderators close this thread as this argument which of course will no doubt go on and on actually does no good for either To-Shin Do, or the Bujinkan.

Gary Arthur
www.to-shin-quest.co.uk

 

i'll consider it (after discussing with spooky).

to be honest this thread was split off because whenever you and grimjack meet on a thread the original subject gets lost as you both draw everyone into this continued soap-opera.

as i said yesterday, this issue is showing no sign of being put to rest anytime soon and you have both seemingly ignored my request the other week to carry this on via PM.

with all that in mind, this thread has a purpose; namely to help prevent future discussions becoming monopolised by the TSD/BBT differences.

the reason i'm hesitant to close it is because, going on past performance, it won't be more that a couple of weeks before the two of you will be at it again.

 

I agree it should stay open for the immediate future.

 

Xen posted

I agree the whole is starting to be a little tiring. I just find it so infuriating that someone can come on the forums and make all kinds of allegations in regard to honesty against another person without any proof. I myself have never called Dr Hatsumi a liar, and if I did I would expect the Bujinkan people on here to jump on me for doing so. Yet these allegations from Grimjack of dishonesty raise their head everytime the name "Stephen K Hayes" appears on the forums. Its like he has an agenda, and I foolishly jump to the defence of Mr Hayes, when i should really just let it go, but I guess thats just me.

This is an excellent idea, and I appreciate the e mails I have had from other Bujinkan members who have been both supportive and friendly, but I think that Grimjack will not do this as I might find out who he is. My e mail is always open if he wishes to contact me.

For me the issue was about whether Mr Hayes was still getting Bujinkan grades for his students or not, and it seems that it has been proved that he is, and therefore all allegations against Mr Hayes of being called a liar in this regard have been proved to be false. So in this respect the issue is closed and for me it is put to bed.

Well we went through the allegation that Mr Hayes wasn't in Japan in the 70s,when in fact we proved that he was.

Then there was this silly thread that because Mr Hayes was in Kumamoto, he could not have trained much with Dr Hatsumi, until it was pointed out that actually Dr Hatsumi travelled further to train with Takamatsu. And of course we now know that actually Mr Hayes spent much of the time in Tokyo. And of course this was followed by an e mail from Mr Hayes to Saru 1968, which some thought would not be sent, which kind of put the whole thing to rest.

Then there was the point about Thomas Franzen studying under Dr Hatsumi before Mr Hayes, until it was pointed out that actually Thomas would have been about 12 at the time.

Then there was the allegation that Mr Hayes didn't meet Rumiko Urata (Now Mrs Hayes) until long after Mr Hayes went to Japan, until it was pointed out that the length of their marriage is mentioned on the Quest Hombu Website.

Then there was the point about Mr Hayes not being the first westerner and therefore a liar, until it was pointed out that the term westerner in the early 80s when Mr Hayes wrote his books was different than it is today, and that further to this Mr Hayes has actually said on his web site and on Shinobi Winds that people were there before him, but as Mr Ellis Amdar points out. Mr Hayes was the first real western student.

Oh and there was that point about some of the early books that were written by Mr Hayes had bad drawings suggesting that Mr Hayes didn't know very much, until MWD Andy showed some of the drawings on some of the scrolls, that looked equally as incorrect

And lastly we had this allegation that Mr Hayes is not receiving Bujinkan certificates when clearly he is.

So i'm waiting for the allegation that states that clearly Mr Hayes can't be very good at Ninjutsu because someone has heard that he only has one leg, or that even though Mr Hayes was in Japan in the 1970s he was only there to repair the gas metre, or some such rumour.

Either that or the above allegations against Mr Hayes will be raised anew again.

So as I say for me the issue is closed until the next ridiculous rumour hits the forum.

Gary Arthur
www.to-shin-quest.co.uk

 

Can we schedule the postings, so i don't miss any episodes.

Can we introduce some new Characters?

maybe a recuring amusing fat chap who rolls through the thread holding mickey D's and Burgerking after surviving a 'Iga Ninja attack'. Each week the circumstances could get more unbelievable, like eating only one bargain bucket....

 

Not to be picky but just correct. No mention of it in the email recieved from Steve.

The email was before the information you provided via Steve about the 'time' in Tokyo which makes an amusing acronym(T.I.T)

Anyhow, looking forward to the next installment.

 

Would you want to have that?

Oh well, I guess it is hard to dismiss a 15th dan who has been over there for a few weeks who says the board is in the toilet and so on....

Personally, I know who I believe to be telling the truth when I spoke to them on Monday while he is still in Japan on the phone. Everything else is just a Vicky Pollard imersionation of "Yeah but, no but, yeah but, shurrup!".

 

Sink draw actually !

 

Well I was close. It is connected with water. Loosely, said I doing my Dereck Acorah impression.

 

i hear what you are saying and i do understand you feeling the need to counter the accusations.

i also have no problem with you responding to the comments.

i'm just trying to keep the thread boundaries 'clean' and when a recurring difference keeps dominating discussions, it makes sense to isolate it and concentrate it in a single thread.

this matter is between the two of you, but i suspect that without an audience, neither of you would have much motivation to communicate

/mod hat off

to be honest, on the surface, it looks like the removal of the plaque was a clear sign that the public relationship between SKH and DR. H has changed. Given that SKH's students are not responsile for his actions, it seems to make sense that the Bujinkan would still offer them grades. Why isolate them? It makes better business sense to keep contact with them and hopefully turn their allegience back to the Bujinkan.

as i've said before, the dynamic psychology of all groups is to use propoganda to maintain a shared sense of common purpose between affiliates and members. SKH is off message and is a target. To believe this situation will change without him going cap-in-hand back to Japan and re-affirming his status by modifying his behaviour to fall back into the Bujinkan's accepted practices is to ignore the basic facts of group behavioural stratergies.

/mod hat on

can both sides keep the continuation of this battle clean please

ty.

 

Xen posted

I think that this is beyond doubt, but to what degree is just idle speculation. Although just to throw a little idle speculation into the pot, I would guess that it falls short of the shouting match previously mentioned otherwise I guess neither side would want to get involved in the Cerification issues.

Totally agree. There are many people who study To-Shin Do who hold high grades, and some AFAIK still train within the Bujinkan and remain members. My whole point on this thread has concerned the fact that Mr Hayes does still receive Bujinkan grades for his students, and I guess Dr Hatsumis reasons for this are his alone.

Absolutely

For me the battle is over. I just hope that next time a rumour is raised that people can look at this thread and realise that some of the people making the runour are not quite as in tune with what is happening as they were once thought.

Gary Arthur

 

We have a problem

Unfortunately, Garth, we have a problem and the thread should definitely *NOT* be closed for your convenience. Because Garth was quoting Joji Ohashi directly, I brought the thread to Joji's attention via email. Here is what Joji had to say in reply. Please note he has given me permission to post this.

I've added colors to separate the emails, and bold to emphasize certain points.

<BEGIN BENCOLE EMAIL TO JOJI OHASHI>
Joji,

I hope things are going well for you. Michigan is getting colder
by the day!

There has been a very interesting discussion on Martial Arts
Planet about Hayes, which now includes quotations from an email
that you sent to Gary Arthur of one of the U.K.-based Quest
Centers.

I don't know if you've seen the thread or not, but you should
probably take a look.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59470&page=1

-ben
<END EMAIL FROM BENCOLE TO JOJI OHASHI>



<BEGIN JOJI OHASHI REPLY TO BENCOLE>
> Joji,
>
> I hope things are going well for you. Michigan is getting colder
> by the day!

Hi, Ben.
Yes, and I hope you are Genki, too.

> There has been a very interesting discussion on Martial Arts
> Planet about Hayes, which now includes quotations from an email
> that you sent to Gary Arthur of one of the U.K.-based Quest
> Centers.
>
> I don't know if you've seen the thread or not, but you should
> probably take a look.
>
> http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59470&page=1
>
> -ben


Thanks for the info. I've just returned from work.

Well, I sent him two emails and he seems to have chosen some convenient
parts only.

As for my first message to him, it's OK. He quoted the whole thing in #16.
(But his understanding "This seems a fair point as I am NOT a Bujinkan
member." in #12 is different from what I meant. IMHO, this issue couldn't
be his business even if he was a Bujinkan member, because he is not either
Mr.Hayes himself or his agent on it.)

As for the second, I see a big problem.

Mr.Arthur says (in #25)

> For me the issue was about whether Mr Hayes was still getting
> Bujinkan grades for his students or not, and it seems that it
> has been proved that he is, and therefore all allegations against
> Mr Hayes of being called a liar in this regard have been proved
> to be false. So in this respect the issue is closed and for me it
> is put to bed.

and he is trying to "prove" it by quoting from my second message.

Quoting from myself is OK, but the fact is that he used only the last
paragraph of the email ("It's OK even if he still...") and skipped all the
other part that showed him something much more important. The paragraph
was just an appendix in spite of his intention, if I may say. I've noticed
he failed to skip the last sentence "The real issue is what *he* does.",
though.

Anyway, in order not to mislead any readers, he should have quoted the main
part of the message as well. I'll paste the whole of my second message
below without a correction so that you can see what I mean.


(START of quote)==============================
As I posted on my site before, the fact is,

> Although the latest news from the Hombu seems to have surprised
> many people, the facts involved are very simple.
>
> Soke has decided that the person in question has moved away
> from the Bujinkan and so he is no longer recognized as a
> Bujinkan member.
> His name placard has been removed from the 10th dan board in
> the Hombu Dojo.
> (Soke doesn't care if people call it a Hamon or not.)
>
> I hope this clarifies the issue. Please stop making a fuss on the
> Internet. There is no need for discussion on this matter, but you
> can contact Soke if you are REALLY concerned.

I don't think I have much to add to this.

As you know, Mr.Hayes wrote a letter to Soke. But he didn't reply to it.
Do you understand what it means?

I gather that Soke is waiting for Mr.Hayes to do what he should do as a
Budo student. If he doesn't understand what he is expected to do, it's
hopeless. (I'm afraid it is the case.)

One more thing.

It's OK even if he still receives certificates from Hombu. They are for
his students who are not responsible for this matter at all. The real
issue is what *he* does.
(END of quote)================================


As you understand, he omitted the critical point in the message and used
only the last three lines for some reason.

To tell the truth, I wanted to say many more things in the email, but I
deleted most of them before hitting the "send" button because I didn't want
to cause needless trouble on the Internet (I foresaw that he would quote my
message in his posts). We (including him of course) should understand that
it is not only ourselves who read the thread but many others too. What
will they think when they find this "fuss"? How about Soke? Or his
teacher? That's why I decided to say the minimum to him. So, it'll be
meaningless if he hides the very part. I hope you see my idea now.

Finally, I think this issue can be solved happily only by Mr.Hayes's
speaking to Soke in person, which should happen ASAP.

I hope this helps.

* You can post this whole message on the forum if you want.
(although I'm afraid I've inputted too much.)

George Ohashi
Bujinkan Hombu & Ayase class administrator, 12th dan
http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/

<END JOJI OHASHI REPLY TO BENCOLE>

 

Jojo Ohashi wrote

As I put

The rest of Mr Ohashi's thread in my opinion is irrelevant to the discussion as it pertains to relationships between Dr Hatsumi and Mr Hayes i.e

This is a personal opinion and is not relevant to the discussion.

I was advised by Grimjack to write to Mr Ohashi regarding whether Mr Hayes receives Gradings from Dr Hatsumi based on the fact that Grimjack was stating that he did not and was therfeore a liar. This I did and received the reply from Mr Ohashi.

I did not post all of the E mail as I thought much of it irrelevant to the postm, and I did not want the post going off at a tangent as it so often does.

What is relavant is

Sorry I did not. I put

It's OK even if he still receives certificates from Hombu. They are for his students who are not responsible for this matter at all. The real
issue is what *he* does.

The real issue here is that Mr Hayes was called a liar regarding the certificates by Grimjack and Ben Cole and they have been proven wrong regardless of what is in the rest of the thread.

Gary Arthur

 

Might seem like a really daft question but......

Is Mr Hayes ordering these certs or someone else from within the org i.e. others who are Bujinkan and Toshindo members?

 

i feel sorry for Gary, the amount of crap he gets for his opinions and beliefs!!

 

Garth, you've been a very naughty boy.

The full email puts a different story forward rather than the edited highlights.

Oh well, Busted.

 

Saru 1968 posted

No just a seperate issue that most people knew about anyway i.e Dr Hatsumis relationship with Mr Hayes. It has no relationship to whether Mr Hayes was lying about receiving grades from Bujinkan.

How on earth do you make that out. I have ben proven to be right here and Grimjack and Ben Cole have been proven to be wrong. There is nothing more to say.

Gary Arthur

 

Garth, the entire email is relevent to the thread. Your ommision of the first two paragraphs and rewriting what Ohashi has said is just wrong. Now you know better than to twist the information on forums. You have been caught out trying to rewrite and you do not like it. So who is right now, Ohashi or you?

 

You seem to have this thing that this thread is only about grades ? That may be what you want the thread to be about but it is NOT what this thread is about.
Nowhere in the thread title do I see grades mentioned it is called SKH Quest & Hatsumi's Bujinkan so therefore the whole Email from Ohashi san is relevant and should have been quoted by you in full as a matter of ethics as you choose to post his other emails to defend your position also as a matter respect to Ohashi san for taking the time and effort to explain it to you !

Hmm well If I choose to call blue red no matter what the rest of the world thinks I can also always be right. I think you are still dancing around the fringes of the facts myself.

These are your exact words above Gary ! I myself DOUBT Mr Hayes is still receiving grades from the Hombu as his name tag has been removed.
What has been said is that BUJINKAN members who are also training with Mr Hayes MAY be able receive grades from the Hombu through their teachers at this present time. No where in Ohashi san's emial did he say they were or can he said.

It's OK EVEN IF he still receives cert's from the Hombu ! This is NOT a statement of fact but just Ohashi San observation about your concerns about the situation in reply to your email to him !
So it DOES NOT prove Ben Cole and Grimjack wrong or you RIGHT !!
What it does show is how you continue to manipulate the facts to suit your own position !