Single whip applications

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by robert.t, Sep 22, 2016.

  1. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Moving away from the ideas of striking or grabbing, I've been shown the "hook hand" aspect of single-whip as a throwing movement: having side-stepped an opponents punch to the outside, and using pull-down to break their structure, the reverse of the waist leads the hook-hand arm to act as leverage to tip the opponent backwards over your leg.
     
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    IMO, it's the knuckles flips by the wrist. Can you use it to "kill" your opponent? I truly don't believe you can.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  3. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    What I think we can get mileage from is arguing that "single whip" isn't the correct translation of the term for the position associated with it, which is 擔扁 (which can mean something like carrying a load). This makes "single whip" an inaccurate term entirely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_whip

    If it's what I think it is (I don't train Tai Chi but I think everyone here is referring to the classic pose), then it's very similar to Hung Gar's "Single Finger Leading" or "Questioning Hand", "Single finger asks a question" or "Immortal ask a Question" (I've heard all of these uses) technique in the Tiger Crane set. They key differences are the rotation of the torso by 90 degrees, and the slightly less hooked rear hand (which is actually a closed fist in this particular instance). Nothing stopping Gordon here from making the rear hand a Crane's head.

    This is in the White Crane and subsequent Drunken Immortal sections of Tiger Crane Paired Fist.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Taiji came from long fist. In long fist, to keep your arm back can help your leading arm to extend forward.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZeTbwRxqJ8&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZeTbwRxqJ8&feature=youtu.be[/ame]
     
  5. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Hey I went to search for a good graphic that compares that different formats of Tai Chi and found this one, accurate? I thought at least people who do not have a lot of info on the art could see what you're all describing.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Interesting also as I went through the Iron Wire sequence, this is repeated a lot.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I don't care who the person in the following picture is, the Wu style "single whip" is wrong, wrong, and wrong It's NO NO to have your left foot pointing northwest and to have your right foot pointing northeast.

    If he tries to generate power from his

    - left foot, his body will move 45 degree toward his left.
    - right foot, his body will move 45 degree toward his right.
    - both feet, he just can't do it, and he will fall down.

    In other words, he cannot generate power into any direction (Taiji double weight?). You just cannot find any MA posture that can be more ridiculous than this.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  8. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Weightlifting power. Up and down.

    [ame="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0UjPXF64YIc"]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0UjPXF64YIc[/ame]
     
  9. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    By the time you reach this position, you should have already generated power. The posture is a snap-shot of an end position, not a platform from which to launch your attack..
     
  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yes it's as accurate as you might expect.

    Regards the techniques aspect, it's ties in a little with what I wanted to drive at when starting 'the technique thread'; that whilst there are what could be described as orthodox techniques and technique indicators in CMA/ taiji. These are for the most part personal arts and styles open to modification.

    Even looking at the finishing positions there is a lot of information missing on the style of execution. Just myself I can do a lot of variations of single whip. I can modify movements and put in things I like.

    So sometimes for example my rear hand (hook hand) leads with an elbow strike. Beyond the orthodoxy of the pull (tsai) in that arm/ hand someone probably was exposed to another style maybe eagle, maybe Hung and thought hey that technique can go here.

    The technique, despite the variation is sort of low percentage.

    It's (was at least) quite a common phenomenon for Chinese masters to specialise and work on a few or even in extreme cases one technique deeply. It's one of opportunity and set up. I would accept the danger and risk, but that is not unique to any technique really - I have seen fighters break their legs kicking.

    The shape of the hand and all sorts can determine various techniques. But yes I would certainly go along with the idea that this is in that category of "luxury" for me. I have never really trained it, but have had a few bits shown/ taught to me.

    If a martial artists for example favoured striking technique over grappling he might put this technique in. There are so many different motions that can go on as the hand circles hooks; is held that you can get a few variations from a breakdown of just doing it one way.

    Because (I think) taichi is often practiced very slowly, you can see small motions or modifications in the shape and trajectories that map on to 'small' technique variations that bit easier.. Hopefully some guys/gals will be with me, and get what I'm driving at. Certainly I think TCC is probably the most malleable and modified Chinese systems/ styles around.

    There are so many styles and variations of tai chi forms and applications that for me it's best to take them as they are from the people transmitting them and your ultimate goal should be to make them your own. mostly you may be happy with most of it, but don't be afraid to change something once you feel you are experienced enough that you own your form and techniques you are able to derive from it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    This is a variation that in the upper body is fairly similar in feel and shape but it's not a single whip as it is recognised in tai chi styles. Something extremely close to that posture exists in tai chi styles. But essentially the upper body face a different direction in relation to the legs.

    Check here and freeze frame @ around 16.14 to 16.16. It follows from single whip in fact just a few movements before. The shape/movement / posture of the body is pretty much the same the main difference being here in tai chi has a rear kick included as you turn into it. The rear hand is pulling someone into that kick as well as the right hand striking forward.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjoPzHa5m3k"]Wu Style Tai Chi 108 Movements Complete - YouTube[/ame]

    See what you think but it's pretty close, close enough to be the same kind of idea to me; looks like. But I don't know Hung. I can see why you picked up on it it's very similar to single whip in how the upper body splits force in 2 directions.

    edit. it looks like in your photo the front hand is doing the hook, whereas in the tai chi form (see vid) the forward hand is palm.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  12. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    in my opinion the snapshot of hung gar position from iron wire is very different from single whip.

    The picture is an end point. The way you get to that end point in the iron wire requires a horizontal twist ,a rotation of the shoulders in the vertical plane (one side rising the other dropping) and an opening and extending outwards toward the finger tips. Not the same as a single whip action.
     
  13. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    They are different but as you and I both pointed out, have common points that can be linked with minor modifications, a 90 degree rotation or simple change in hand position and so forth. End point is exactly right, two different formats but of something kind of similar theme in concept (one hand forward, one back), not particular to any specific application. The Hung gar version is like Tai Chi's "Carry Load" but in a way,twisted. Physically, they are both "Carry Load"(single whip's proper name).

    Hung gar's is performed in the side horse/bow and arrow stance and is followed with a combination of boxing strikes using side to side stepping. The Questioning Hand's starting point though is just a single finger bridge hand, and an alternate poised fist, in a similar way to "Carry Load's" forward pushing palm and rear poised Crane's head. Whatever happens before or after this position could be radically different. I know this is the case with Hung gar because this technique is a short 'pause' after the very physically intensive Drunken Immortal section of the Tiger Crane...a moment of calm after and before a lot of exertion.

    Anyways I know this is a Tai Chi thread so I don't mean to derail it. I really don't have anything to contribute about Tai Chi's method of applying this, just pointing out things my eye recognizes.

    For reference here's the full Gordon Liu video this segment is at 3:10 in. There is the Crane section, and then the Immortals section which basically ends at this technique, and begins the fist sequence known as Seven Stars/Five Elements fist.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLbnF2n5Rns"]åŠ‰å®¶è¼ Gordon Liu 洪拳 虎鶴雙形(Hung Gar Kuen Tiger and Crane Form)Fu Hok Seung Ying - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  14. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    With minor modifications one can turn many end point postures into something else.Which is fine,but then it's something else.

    As to these two end point postures,they're not the same.Even the angles of extension of the arms in relation to the body are quite dissimilar.The method and sequence of execution is different,and the mechanics are different.So both arms are extended out from the body,that's about it.

    What's so especially physically intensive about the drunks in Fu Hok?-I never found them any more and certainly less intensive than many of the other parts of the form.
     
  15. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    We're talking 1-2 simple changes. I can make the static, questioning hand pose, turn my hips and just change my fist pattern, and it's the classic Tai Chi pose. Should I not be able to start with a Hung gar technique and flow right into Tai Chi, or vice versa, in real movement? And why not? These two positions do have something common to them, that much is clear. What it is has something to do with extremes, I think. That's apparent in the overall structure. Not the mechanics as you said, something more elemental. The basic idea, which should be obvious from the picture (not obvious, are the techniques being shown in the picture, right)? The least common denominator, essentially, stuff to help outsiders relate.

    Yes not the same, but that is beside my point. The Tai Chi Carry Load/Single Whip final position shows portions of the body being at extremes. One hand forward, one hand back, in particular open palm forward, crane's head back.

    Hung gar has this similar set of patterns, in line with a 'one hand forward, one back, one high, one low' methodology, and the hand positions (and angles for that matter) are inter-changeable as is the stance. Like the Tai Chi pose, you're seeing a final stage (or in Hung gar, really, an intermediary pause between Fu Hok sections, and the dynamic tension illustrative of Hung gar's "internal" technique)

    Getting to the Immortals section of Fu Hok by itself is physically intensive. You've completed Tiger and Crane sections and are more than 100 movements in by this point of Fu Hok. Most people would need to train a couple years to be able to get to this point in Fu Hok at full intensity without stopping. That includes already well conditioned athletes in my experience. This form will test anybody's conditioning level no matter how/what they train, and that's pretty easy to test out.

    The questioning hand is there for a reason, to pause and ask a question, before going into what is some of the most intensive segments of the whole fist set, the Seven Star sequence, and the final sequence with the No Shadow kick. For the record it took me about 3 years of almost daily training before I was ever able to get through the whole Tiger Crane in one run, that number is not considered out of the ordinary, either.

    As far as I understand Tai Chi this is probably one of the biggest differences in how the fist sets are practiced. I don't think it's common for Tai Chi forms to tire people out as quickly or in the same way as Hung gar forms, and maybe that's it's genius...I don't know but it seems like the two could be combined with make a very harmonious system (and like I mentioned, I've been taught that at it's highest levels, Hung gar is very much like Tai Chi, which makes sense given all the Hung gar techniques I'm comparing are Taoist Immortal or Iron Wire techniques associated with Nei Gong, like Tai Chi is).

    I guess what interests me about this thread is learning more about "Carry Load"/Single Whip from the Tai Chi folks, and why it's different from things in Hung gar (if it is at all). Why is any style different from another, really? :D Anways sorry for dragging this out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  16. huoxingyang

    huoxingyang Valued Member

    The two techniques are different in the way a jab isn't a cross. Now you could make a few changes to either one to get you to the "end posture" of the other, but that is entirely the point... They are different movements.

    If you want to compare Tai Chi's Single Whip posture to Fu Hok, I'd say in application (depending on what you have in mind) the techniques of the Immortals section are more similar in intent. Just a thought.
     
  17. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Right! Different movements in between but structural common points moved through. I was going to post that too, but was trying to reduce my volume :D

    There are definitely the same kind of "hands at extremes" positions in the Drunken Immortals section, if this is what you were thinking (it's what I was).

    [​IMG]
     
  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    The main difference in the tai chi postures we've looked at is in single whip you are *more likely*(to me) coming to it from the side door and uses rotational dynamic. in the second posture we looked at from tai chi which is closer to the Hung shape we're discussing comes in down/through the middle. The kick is neither here nor there, in this case it just happens to be there.

    back to single whip; In application the placement of the forward leg (to the outside) also becomes a possible contributor to the technique. Just not a kick.
    That would be taken advantage of with the rotational dynamic.

    This difference in those two comes from the way you move with the techniques both with the hands, torso and relational leg vs. torso position.
    Basically one is much more rotational in general where the second is very linear.

    But to nutshell it, one is more linear, the other (single whip) uses much more circularity.

    I've seen people use / demo SW from the inside position. But it "sometimes* fails to use the rotational dynamic of the movement. That application is really much more indicative of the second more linear version of the pull/ strike.

    Another posture in tai chi that is similar is snake creeps down; this one again is linear but swoops down.

    Same core idea one hand pulling back, one hand strikes forward - in this case down into groin, where the technique transitions into fireman's carry and dump behind.. on the way back up. Cool combo! :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  19. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Mr chen beating up his mate.

    I would suggest that the throws at around 4.40 incorporate the single whip body movement / weight shift. while at 5.30 in he shows how single whip hand can be used for chi na.


    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Holnh-VEysA"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Holnh-VEysA[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  20. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    The front hand in single whip rotates from inside to outside re. the rotational movement.
    In that clip CXW he uses his forward hand from the outside to inside. Not single whip.

    The second part referenced re of the hand and chinna - yes agreed, from SW.

    Now this is more like single whip from the inside position and she shows the rotational aspect.
    .

    An old poster/member (RIP) J Zorya

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxC2ljcV8ls"]Single Whip (dan bian) Application - Martial Tai Chiâ„¢ - YouTube[/ame]

    Though I prefer it from the outside personally, more like the following position. But Wim doesn't use much rotation. And adds an arm-bar to it.

    So ideally I would be looking for the outside entry but an execution a bit more like J Zoryas.

    I would also not bother with entries off strikes but rather tie ups/grabs where something like an arm drag gets you to the outside position.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0GRTevH9vg"]Single Whip - YouTube[/ame]

    If Wim got his front leg in closer and used a more rotational strike, he could make that into a knockdown over his leg keeping control of the arm. The arm-bar control could be there only leveraged against his body to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016

Share This Page