silat vs muay thai

Discussion in 'Silat' started by kezamx, Nov 1, 2013.

  1. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I think the guys are just being realistic about the clip, that's all.

    Could you point out some specific Silat work in the clip?

    I know very little about it and all I could catch was perhaps the odd bit of footwork, like Hannibal has pointed out a lot of the workable stuff came from other sources.
     
  2. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Well there were some small moments:

    - at 1:00 in the video, he does a ground sweep, sadly he used the wrong distancing with that. At a closer distance he might have had more success
    - during the clip he produced a couple of side kicks which are not very common in Muay Thai or MMA (although not specifically Silat either)
    -at 1:40 is a nice move, which is common in BJJ but was also already their a long time in Silat.

    the posing and frequent changing of sides, is also seen frequently in Silat Tanding, but is not unique to the style.

    A lot of the groundwork stuff is more BBJ-ish, which is a shame since Silat has beautiful groundstuff (Harimau stuff). Not all Silat styles have specific groundwork though.
     
  3. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    I have to say, that I have noticed that these style vs style videos always end up the same. The supporters of the winning style say "there you go , proof it works against the other style" and the supporters of the losing style say " That guy is not a good example of the style, he cant do it well , so it proves nothing" .

    Havent watched the vid, but this happens in every style v style thread with a vid I have seen
     
  4. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    You are right Robin101. In the end it comes down to the practitioner of the style and the way he tests his skills. If you test your skills in an MMA type of setting, it all tends to look like MMA mostly.
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The point that is being put across currently is slightly different, namely that the art being touted as the victor isn't actually being used much...that does not even factor in the oppenents skill level (which isn't great anyway)

    This is another variation of the "stone soup" argument
     
  6. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I'm with Taoizt on this. The OP cited it as "great," which is an exaggeration. That said, here we have someone doing what we've consistently said we want to see of silat. Taking it into a testing environment. So what if it's not textbook silat? We've seen many styles and techniques that took time to "find themselves" in the cage. Was a time when a muay thai background was no better indicator of UFC greatness than was a background in stamp collecting. Anyone remember Orlando Wiet's dominance in the Octagon? Me neither.

    Give the man his due.
     
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Hells yeah! He was awesome. Those elbows he used were wicked. :)
     
  8. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Oh I liked Wiet. But it wasn't until much later that muay thai became a dominant factor in the cage. Marco Ruas perhaps. Or Mo Smith?
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    That was because it was not integrated or synthesised within an MMA environment - we have had 20 years of MMA now and "finding your feet" isn't as valid as it was back in the day because the expectations and requirements are known and available to all
     
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The thing I look for from these "here's my style in MMA" videos is...you know..the style.
    Something unique, distinctive or representative of that style.
    We get that with Machida's Karate for example. You can clearly see he's a different flavour of fighter compared to the wrestle-boxers. He doesn't look like bad Thai or boxing. He's worked out how to make what he knows from Karate work in MMA.
    Sadly what we usually end up seeing is stylistic posing when out of range (and it's safe to do) and then bad flailing kick-boxing when in-range. Or some bad grappling.
    And this is no different really. OK amateur MMA.
     
  11. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    You're the first person to use the word "fake" in this thread. Also, the "oh, no one loves or practices Silat here!" is not only wholly inaccurate, but really just sounds like someone expecting everyone to share their view. My years on MAP tell me that MAP isn't the place to go if you expect everyone to think the same way.

    I honestly think you're looking for or imagining arguments. The OP framed this as a "vs." video. He also called the winner a "great fighter". The criticisms have been about how much Silat was actually used, his quality of opponent, and whether or not the winner was, indeed, "great". If the OP had framed it as, "Here's a Silat fighter in an MMA match" and left it at that, I think some of the same criticisms would have been given, but the overall reception would have been warmer, because he wouldn't have been making some frankly grandiose and antagonistic claims.

    Me, I can't say I "love" Silat. I've been exposed to a little of it, have learned a few useful things I didn't know already, and want to learn more, but I don't hold it higher than any other martial arts I've practiced. And even "loving" a martial art doesn't mean I don't criticize it. At the same time, criticism doesn't mean I hate something, it means I think critically about what I'm practicing. And finally, I don't know what constitutes "great" in Silat, because that's not my wheelhouse, but I do know what "great" means in MMA. This guy ain't it. I'll say again what I've said before: I want to see more Silat in MMA. Shoot, I want to see more of EVERYTHING in MMA. But one guy going 2-0 at a lower level doesn't make him "great".
     
  12. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Sure, that's all true. But don't we need people willing to go in and discover through experience what doesn't work before we establish what does? Why belittle the guy who's willing to be the experiment? Yeah he's posing out of range. He's only human. He has his pride. But surely he's also learning. Have at the fanboys. But surely this guy deserves props for taking his silat into hostile territory. It's a beginning.
     
  13. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Yeah but that's the fault of the OP. Not the fighter.
     
  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Absolutely. If the actual fighter came on here and said "here's me having a go at MMA" he'd have been well received I think.
    Got some pointers and input just like anyone else.
    Everyone gets props for competing in a full contact style in my book.
     
  15. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Yeah any hostility is aimed at the OP more than the fighter. It's an amateur fight and he won convincingly - he can be proud of his performance. The hostility comes from the OP saying 'this fighter is amazing because he beat up a Muay Thai fighter'.
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    And that is precisely where the critiques fell - no one has said "Silat sucks", they have just found fault with the initial hyperbole of the OP and his assertion. The latter conflict was - albeit unintentional - caused by taoizt becoming defensive about his art when that was never the issue in the first place
     
  17. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Ok, I agree with you guys. Perhaps the OP was a good friend or a proud practitioner of the same art, so his view was slightly biased.
     
  18. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    I understand that, and that's exactly why I didn't criticize the fighter.
     
  19. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    Just to clear up, i wasnt impugning either art. Just saying that style v style threads dont really prove anything. But as has been said kudos for anyone willing to fight another style and taking it out of their comfort zone.
     
  20. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I know guys. Relax. My point is that these discussions frequently bring up the "... but he didn't USE silat" argument. My only point is that, while that may be true, if someone with a background in silat is willing to get into the ring, then others may as well. And, in time, they may find ways to utilize things that definitively ARE silat. We should applaud someone starting that process, even if his cheerleaders do come off badly. I agree that this is fundamentally a misunderstanding between 1) those who think the OP is overblowing what the video shows and 2) those who would like it acknowledged that someone from silat is making an effort. I think we can all probably be a little clearer about the common ground we enjoy.
     

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