Silat useless or misunderstood ?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Kuntaoist, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    You see, I can be nice :)

    I've been exposed to violence yes, not loads, but yes. It turned ugly, I was training some chinese karate at that time and found it frustrating that i couldn't make my stuff work. From then I decided to find another MA that was more efficient in this and so i found....believe it or not... silat. Dabbled a bit in JKD, Wingchun, Krav Maga, Boxing etc.etc. but i'm quite happy now..

    We train close range all the time (elbow range) so we get more comfortable with that.

    About mr. Pistorius, well yeah we will see if it turns out to be an accident or not.
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I don't think I've seen Way of the Dragon. I'll do it tonight!

    Of course I have definitely seen Enter the Dragon. It's a good film, and I love the head and arm attempt at the end of the film.

    My favourite martial arts film just now is Warrior. Although that's also because it's good screenplay. TBH though I'ma massive fanof Jeff Imada, and any film he is doing Choreography for. The Bourne series has my favourite sequences in them.
     
  3. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I doubt it was an accident, however if I tried looking I could find examples of similar where it was a genuine accident. This is the drawback with the expressed mentality, if you attack in the absence of clear evidence of ill intent then you risk harming people unnecessarily, which far from protecting you may find you in jail.
    I'm not an advocate of always letting them punch first, but punching anyone who comes within 3 feet of you WILL find you in court (and honestly, you let people get that close to you everyday).
    It's not a comment on your ability to fight at close range (I mean you do silat, your ability to fight at close range is probably your main skill), it's about your statement about starting too close.
     
  4. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    It's nice and all that you bring up the practicality of silat in general, but remember, there are hundreds of styles. Varying from the stuff you see at weddings to streetboxing styles. From very crude to very sophisticated and everything in between.

    The nice thing about silat it is principle based, not technique based. A bit like systema or some of the chinese internal martial arts. So 1 jurus should give you the answers for dozens of types of attacks. If you can make it work? Well that's all up to you.
     
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I'm not sure I see the relevance of this comment. To be clear, while I'm not a silat practitioner myself, I'm not completely unfamiliar with it. And I'm certainly not unfamiliar with the idea of silat being a generic term for various styles. We have precisely the same phenomenon in FMA.

    But this isn't about styles. I don't believe that styles fight. People fight. And they fail or succeed based on their ability to operationalize what they've learned. Any practitioner of any style can benefit from the incorporation of varied training methods.

    Again, same is said of FMA. But you said it yourself. "If you can make it work." How do you KNOW whether you're making it work? Because you can make it work in a juru? Or a structure drill? Or sparring? Etc. NONE of those things are reality. So my logic is that you try to make it work in as many of those approaches as possible. Because, while you can't train reality, you can triangulate it by various training methods that address different pieces of the whole picture.
     
  6. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Now there is a big difference between 3 feet (if he really wants to hit you he steps in closer. And the 1 feet that was shown in the video. I understand it is just a general training method. But what has this guy learned from this? That stress diminishes your abilities? Or that he gets hit a couple of times first before he can do anything else? I prefer to turn it around....no matter what situation or country is if someone comes at me like that and mere keeping at a distance doesn't work......i hit ;)
     
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    If you are claiming efficiacy I would avoid comparisons with Systema as it does little to boost your credibility
     
  8. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I can't remember where you're located, but stateside, it's called "Return of the Dragon."

    That's in my Netflix queue. I'll have to check it out.

    I like those too. I've long been an Imada fan. From Big Trouble in Little China to the present.
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Again great in theory, but praxis is a harsh mistress

    What pressure testing have you actually engaged in?
     
  10. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Then you run the serious risk of exceeding the terms of reasonable force in self defence. What do the students learn here? They learn to keep their hands up, they learn the importance of managing space in self defence situations, they learn to control adrenaline dump, and they learn to recognise signs of imminent attack.
    Again, you're missing the point of the exercise. This is not a technical drill. It's an experiential learning tool. All the participants here are from different schools, the purpose is to pressure test your existing skills in representative scenarios, and then critique them afterwards (which is why they're videod). The video I posted was from the first exercise of a 5 hour day. The shock factor is fairly strong.
     
  11. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Ok i didn't understand the goal of the video. I thought it was to show how you should handle the situation properly (keeping the proper distance to your opponent where he can't directly damage you). But this was a student just trying to learn the drill.

    And yes Sifu Ben, you are right that trying to have a crude mentality can get you to jail. Thats why you want to deescalate it first...at a safe distance. I'm a nice guy. but when the fight is on, i'm not gonna wait for 2 hits in the face since by then i'm already in big trouble (especially without headgear and mma gloves)
     
  12. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    People with no intention of ever hitting you will get in your face.
    How do you expect to do any of that with no pressure testing? I should also point out this doesn't tie to well with your technique comments earlier.
     
  13. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    but in this case he was showcasing that he was going to do that. Because the guy was so close and the defender didn't try to increase the distance he could wait for the moment being popped

    Guys i didn't mention that i never did pressure testing. We don't prefer sparring that's all. But then again the video you showed also wouldnt classify to me as sparring. Perhaps we mean different things with the word sparring.

    What do you mean with your comment that it didn't tie in with the technique comments?
     
  14. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    It was a condition of the drill that the defender has his back to the wall.

    That's an important point. People who criticize sparring tend to do so based on their observations of someone else's sparring format. What they tend to overlook is that sparring is a toolkit. It should be customized to answer the specific questions that you, your school, and your style are posing. Sparring in the WTF format isn't going to answer any of your silat questions. But it's perfectly feasible to construct a format that would. There's protective equipment, training blades, environmental obstacles, etc. Add to that some roleplaying if you want to incorporate some psychological or physiological reactions. And you've got a useful toolkit.
     
  15. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Maybe you should actually read posts before you quote and comment then. That video was posted immediately after a sentence saying that you had a narrow view of resistant/force on force training.
    You don't spar, you don't do force on force training and you don't use safety equipment. How exactly are you pressure testing?
    Because unless you train exclusively in yielding and redirecting, your comments about technique vs strength are nonsensical, especially if your first action is always going to be to aggressively lay hands on someone.
     
  16. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Pff this is becoming one of those endless debates.
    Let's see:

    'I don't spar' : No, i did plenty in the past and sometime i do a few rounds at schools from other styles, but no...since i want to train my reflexes in the proper way for our style.

    'I don't do force on force' : No, i prefer to use position and technique. The opponent can hit as hard as he wants, i want to respond the technical way (doesn't mean soft way). If i would use force on force only big strong men could do MA

    'I don't use safety equipment' : No, it gives you a false sense of security. Although it can be fun and I have done it in the past. I prefer to learn from some of the pain you get without protection. Pain can be a good teacher. You just tune down the hits and kicks. Enough to convince in a training environment. We always use contact.

    Agression can be controlled but you have to train it. That's the point of training. So yes hit straight for the face, but...in a technical way :)
     
  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    You tone it down. So you reduce the pressure. ie, you don't pressure test.
    You're being deliberately obtuse. You don't respond with a realistic level of intensity to an opponent who is trying to actually hit/throw/control you with a realistic level of intensity.
    Do you know what gives a false sense of security? Training without safety equipment. As if you are training without equipment you are only taking light blows (as even moderate blows would see you continuously injured) and little pressure. Where do you get the idea that training with safety equipment doesn't hurt?????
     
  18. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Actually, I think we should end it here. I'm all for continuing a discussion that seems to be headed somewhere. But this one seems to be at an impasse.

    That said, I keenly encourage other people to continue discussing the utility of these things to silat training. Taoizt isn't obliged to continue participating, as he's made his position clear. And I'd like to ask that others respect that decision and concentrate on discussing the matter with other parties who might be receptive.

    Thanks everyone.
     
  19. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    You've yet to say how this is prevented by sparring???
     
  20. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    While I understand what you're saying, Taozit is just mistaken about the bulk of the subject matter. It's not so much that he has entrenched beliefs it's that he doesn't understand the topics being discussed or the frames of reference for the relevant terms. Once he's understood the frames of reference then we can see how entrenched his beliefs are.
     

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