Silat Sparring

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Wali, Mar 29, 2006.

  1. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Hi all,

    How do your different schools pressure test the silat it is teaching?

    We have some seriously rough sparring, where broken noses, huge bruises etc is not unheard of. We still need to tone it down, and keep the ovious things like gouiging etc... out of it.

    We also like to test our silat against other ways of fighting, and spar with shootfighters, thai boxers, BJJ, etc...

    I find that only by pressure testing your silat, can you really see how much you have really absorved, and how much silat you really 'own'.

    It would be interesting to see how the different schools do this. I don't suscribe to the 'it's too deadly to spar' theory, but this is why I opened up this thread.

    Look forward to hearing all your replies.

    Regards,
    Wali
     
  2. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    I like to spar heavy with the guys too.

    I think it needs to be looked at carefully, and organised, not just a 'brawl' type match. That way you can use your techniques, and know what works for you.
     
  3. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    [We have some seriously rough sparring, where broken noses, huge bruises etc is not unheard of. We still need to tone it down, and keep the ovious things like gouiging etc... out of it.]

    Warning! This is my rant....
    Do you sparring before learning how to do sambut-menyambut efficiently and correctly? Lets be honest here, I have seen in silat and in many Mac Dojo where students being taught how to sparr in their first month of training. Resulting in brawl, each fighter did not apply their art to fight or their body unable to or they don't know how.
    We practice basic religiously over and over so that the techniques becomes part of our body movements. We practice the silat techniques in ideal situations so that we will be able to apply it in unideal situations. Do we have an injuries, of course, but mostly accidental. To let students free sparr without supervision or without checking if the student have the abilities to apply the techniques properly, IMHO is a self-promoting ego.
    With all do respect, this acts what I called deep insecurity masked by self-confidence and self indulgence.

    [We also like to test our silat against other ways of fighting, and spar with shootfighters, thai boxers, BJJ, etc...]

    Sparr is good if you have a goal to achieve, you must define your goal then work on your tasks to achieve that goal. If you goal is unclear or fuzzy. No matter how hard you try, you will ended with a fuzzy goal.

    [I find that only by pressure testing your silat, can you really see how much you have really absorved, and how much silat you really 'own']

    You can't test some one for something that that they do not know?
    Remember the saying, learn how to crawl before learn how to walk?
    Or learn how do the addition and subraction before learn how to multiplication and devision. Only after you understand "how to" on this basic math, then you began to teach the square root. The same thing in sparr. you can't (can you?) expect your student to apply all the techniques you had given him in the past month in a free sparr? Do they punch like they do in practice? Do they kick like they do in practice? Do they any thing like the way you teach them in practice? Do they?
    IMHO, sambut menyambut is the brigde to a free sparr, or multiplication and division in math. Without the ability to properly execute sambut menyambut or do the multiply and division, no student should try to free sparr or learn the square roots. That's the fact Jack!

    [It would be interesting to see how the different schools do this. I don't suscribe to the 'it's too deadly to spar' theory, but this is why I opened up this thread.]

    This is my opionion, everyone entittle to their own, you can freely to disagree with me. I have told my students, it took ten years to learn silat basics. Of all those years, they only learn and practice repeating the basics and sambut menyambut. There is no free sparr in my silat class before that. Now you may be wonder why I only have 5 silat student? I love it!
    Thanks for listening,
    Tristan
     
  4. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Hi Orang Jawa,

    The sparring isn't introduced until much later on, and only the seniors partake in it.

    The beginners stick to basics; conditioning (lots and LOTS!), technique, alignment, posture, concepts, precepts, etc...

    However, they then get to a stage where you have to start introducing a deeper sense of realism into the training, which need to go beyond the drills.

    People come to learn silat for self defence. They need to know that what they are learning will work under all environments. With no sparring in a realistic manner, we would be cheating them and perhaps putting them in a place where they have a dangerous sense of false security.

    I can assure you that I train in no Mcdojo, and the training is very progressive. Beginners are extremelly looked after and shielded from injury and damage.

    Nowhere did I say we spar without supervision.

    The goal for our sparring is to test what we really know. Making it unpredicatble is the only way to develop it. Otherwise it becomes mechanical and predictable.

    We have 10 different sparring methods, some of which only work certain aspects (only striking, only grappling, etc.. as well as anything goes).

    We 'stay in our silat' during sparring, and don't suddenly resemble a kickboxer jumping and bibbing around when fighting. This is the way of traditional silat.

    I disagree about having to wait 10 years before sparring. This develops the body in a certain way and conditions the mind to react in a 'non-contact' (the best word I can articulate, but not the one I would really want to use). It also exposes your students to going into 'shock' should they be faced in a real life confrontation where real violence is used at full force against them by people who don't wait to hit out at full force.

    Regards,
    Wali
     
  5. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Selamat Waly,

    [People come to learn silat for self defence. They need to know that what they are learning will work under all environments. With no sparring in a realistic manner, we would be cheating them and perhaps putting them in a place where they have a dangerous sense of false security.]

    Really? If their objective is to merely self-defense, then you have to structure yuor class for self-defense only, meaning a few techniques, a lot of repetitions, and would be non traditional silat practice that I know of.

    [The goal for our sparring is to test what we really know. Making it unpredicatble is the only way to develop it. Otherwise it becomes mechanical and predictable.]
    Have you ever compete in any martial arts tournament? I know its a jokes but is still a good place to test your ability to perform in unpredictable situation.

    [We have 10 different sparring methods, some of which only work certain aspects (only striking, only grappling, etc.. as well as anything goes).]

    Interesting concept, free sparring with 10 different rules. I thought sambut menyambut is a free sparring with a rules of engagement. :confused:

    [I disagree about having to wait 10 years before sparring. This develops the body in a certain way and conditions the mind to react in a 'non-contact' (the best word I can articulate, but not the one I would really want to use). It also exposes your students to going into 'shock' should they be faced in a real life confrontation where real violence is used at full force against them by people who don't wait to hit out at full force.]

    I agree to disagree. As i have said, your opinon is good as my own.
    In my own experience, I did studied for 10 years before I did a free sparr.
    As far as a "shock" you can train as much as you can, no body can predict how your react in a real situation. Your brain freeze for the moment, you rely in your instinct, that's the only advantage of learning martial arts. As far as a full force attack. In sambut menyambut, the attacker learn how to attack, meaning they have to reach or hit the person with multiple strikes (punches and kicks) with control first and end up with a full force. The defender learn how to react accordingly. Sambut menyambut is not ippon kumite or one punch one block only. Sambut menyambut is a tools of how to learn your attacker's body mechanic movements and your own body mechanics to react. Learn how to feel things, learn how to understand how to secure your perimeter before, during and after the strike. If you can't handle the known attack, how would you handle the unkonwn attack. Assume your attacker attack you with three or more punches and react instinctively, efficient, and confidence. You may do well in a real fight. Other than that is just like having a gun and don't know how to shoot or worse know how to shoot, and the brain freeze, nano second can save your life. I've seen it and experience it.
    And I could be wrong too,
    Tristan
     
  6. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Hi Tristan,

    Let's face it, people come to learn silat primarily for self defence. If we cannot agree on this, then this line of conversation will quickly dry up.

    While I agree with your comments, I think that your students would do well to pressure test what they are learning. You talk about sparring and say "With all do respect, this acts what I called deep insecurity masked by self-confidence and self indulgence".

    I feel that the opposite is true for non-sparring... masking insecurity in the event that what is being taught won't really work with a non-compliant opponent.

    Lets not forget that silat is a battlefield art. Do you think that warriors of old waited for 10 years before pressure testing their skills? How long do you think the old pendekars would last in this way?

    Respectfuly,
    Wali
     
  7. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Hi Waly,
    I do respect your opinion, highly. I just disagree with it. ;)

    Lets not forget that silat is a battlefield art. Do you think that warriors of old waited for 10 years before pressure testing their skills? How long do you think the old pendekars would last in this way?

    Silat is a martial arts, how to fight in the battlefield in the old way. In essence, people do not fight with machetes or tombak in battlefield anymore. The truth it is, if we learn silat solely for a self-defense, we will not stay as long as we have. We should be honest with this, its our responsibility to tell our prospect students the truth, the truth is learn silat is along journey. IMHO, we learn silat for the art of it. I learn Iaijutsu and silat weapons, do I think I will use it somedays? not at all, I don't even carry knife in my pockets let alone carry katana. We should enjoy while learning the art, we enjoy the art as we enjoy playing the other sports. If we enjoy playing golf or tennis as we train in silat, then we accomplish what we are trying to accomplish. Happy, healthy and peace of mind. :rolleyes:
    As far as a combat ready, any new soldiers coming to join our team, we called him FNG or cherries. Regardless he graduated from Airborne Ranger School or Special Forces training. The reason being, we cannot depend on him just yet. Until he have been in Indian Country. Regardless how much you trained, you will never know how your react at the first or the hundred firefights. Indian county means, you are in enemy territory, and they try their hardness to kill you. Ach it was long time ago but yet still vividly remember.
    I could be wrong too,
    Tristan
     
  8. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    I think you are taking my original question to the extreme, and have made an assumption that all we do is spar and grapple like animals all day long.

    We train our silat soft, and for longevity, so we can continue our practice into our old age. We focus heavily on the kembangang, and there are very deep and esoteric practices which are not for discussion on this board. However, we ALSO have sparring, which is INCLUSIVE of everything else, and not the ONLY thing we do.

    We take the middle road in everything we do, and try and find a balance. sparring adds to that balance by introducing a higher level or realism that you can otherwise not attain.

    At a seminar, one of our students that had only started the sparring recently was asked to grapple with a senior silat student from another school (9 years+ of training and teaching) (not a system of anyone who posts in here, but I shall not name the system out of respect). They didn't do ANY sparring or realistic training, and focused purely on technique. Needless to say it was cringeworthy having to witness what took place.

    I am putting my view accross from experience, and would like to know what others think on this matter.

    Orang Jawa, once your students have had 10 years of practice, how do you introduce them into sparring, and what is it they eventually do?

    Regards,
    Wali
     
  9. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Before I chip in on this one, how are we defining 'sparring'?

    Also, If we are sparring within the structure of our art when do we distinguish between sambut & sparring?
     
  10. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Sparring (within the context of my question) means to fight with pretty much minimal rules, making the attacks & defenses as realistic as possible.
     
  11. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Well, yes then.

    However, we do spend a good 70% of our time doing sambuts.

    If it's a new one to me, we tend to continue till I get it right. If not, we will spend a great deal of time repeating them & switching between various types seamlessly (well in theory :rolleyes: ). Sometimes we do not have any planned sequence and randomly switch.

    We then apply these to unstructured attacks. More often than not, the defense will be instinctual and within the framework anyway. But that's the point of doing yer sambuts a squillion times, eh :)
     
  12. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    I think you are taking my original question to the extreme, and have made an assumption that all we do is spar and grapple like animals all day long.

    I have never assumed anything, you are the one who talking about the important of free sparring in the early stage. I am disagree with you, I do believe that student must know how to punch, block, evade instinctively before ready for free sparring.

    [We train our silat soft, and for longevity, so we can continue our practice into our old age.]

    Hmmm, I thought you have said that the purpose of silat is purely for a self-defense only :bang:

    We focus heavily on the kembangang, and there are very deep and esoteric practices which are not for discussion on this board. However, we ALSO have sparring, which is INCLUSIVE of everything else, and not the ONLY thing we do.

    It is a matter of priority my friend, if you so kin about sparr, why you put so much emphasis on kembangan NOT on Sambut menyambut? This worthless mind wants to know.

    We take the middle road in everything we do, and try and find a balance. sparring adds to that balance by introducing a higher level or realism that you can otherwise not attain.

    Well ... :bang:
    Sparring is a tool, It itself has not negative or positive value, Its utility can be measured only through accomplishments, And its accomplishments are elusive. Practice sparring can be as much of a detriment as a complement. Therefore, you should define your goal. Clearly and concisely. The first rule to difine your sparring exercises is to know its limitations. How does one do that? Be careful and close analysis. Prior to teach how to sparr to your students, ask yourself. What is the nature of the techniques/moves I intend to teach? Is it physical power? Is it improving the techniques/movements? Is it physiological? Is it to understand the adrenaline pump? Is it to learn a streetwise techniques? Is it a practice how to react in unideal situation?. Ask then What are the inherent limitations to that the above tasks?
    If you can't answer this questions, then you may have a fuzzy goals. Or maybe not. :rolleyes:



    At a seminar, one of our students that had only started the sparring recently was asked to grapple with a senior silat student from another school (9 years+ of training and teaching) (not a system of anyone who posts in here, but I shall not name the system out of respect). They didn't do ANY sparring or realistic training, and focused purely on technique. Needless to say it was cringeworthy having to witness what took place.

    I'm not going into who is right who is wrong, regardless styles or who is the teacher. The student is reflection of a teacher. If the teacher is sucks, what do you expected on his students? regardless of how many years he have been practiced. Knowledge is power, power is always, less effective that its possessor estimates it to be. Therefore, becareful of how unleash the power. The exercise of power is also always irreversable. Once unleashed and employed there is no turning back.

    Orang Jawa, once your students have had 10 years of practice, how do you introduce them into sparring, and what is it they eventually do?

    Caution...Jinggo boistering in progress
    We do not do any free sparring, I don't know how you define a free sparring either. We are still practice sambut menyambut. The timing, speed, the amount of punches and kicks or takedown are added as the training progress. My philoshopy is that, if they can't block the known stricke techniques coming at them, do expect they can block the unknown punch or kicks coming at them?
    Let see, in a real situations, it is very unlikely the people that attack you, punch and kicks like you or other in the martial arts. Most likely, they learn how to box, therefore, they were very efficient with their techniques. It is much easier to learn how to box, basically they learning how jabs, straight punch, upper-cut, and round house. Or the drunken style, a wild round house.
    If you learn how to counter this during sambut menyambut. learn how defend this type of attacker without flinching your eyes, then you are it!
    The fallacy about sparring is that the student will automatically respond like the way they did in basics. :bang:
    We have to teach the students to fequently practice sambut menyambut often. Sadly though this is not being done. If they do, the attacker did not practice how to apply their offensive techniques, they merely punch or kick, so the defender will be easily fake the technique and counter-attack. If you do not teach your student how to attack/defense properly in sambut menyambut, how could expect them to attack/defense properly in a free sparring?
    Now about my students, Hmmm, my first two students are brothers, they came to me in the early 70's, both of them are second degree black belt in tae kwon do, both of them a streetfighter and owned the bar/nightclub for the bikers hang out. To make a long story straight, they would like to take lesson from me. Their rules is I have to sparr with them first. Remember I have not have sparring experience. But I just came back from my wild tour with the Army Ranger in Vietnam, Private contractor in Africa, so I'm an adrenaline junkie. So I said: Love it! :rolleyes: To make a long story short, I fractured Joe's neck bone and broke his brother jaw in the same day. Eventually they studied with me and I worked as a bouncer in his nightclub. Both of them are still living in Hazleton, PA.
    The other student is ex Delta Force, decorated veteran, and state wrestling champion, he too wants to study but not sure that martial art would be able to overcome his skills in wrestling. I knocked him out..He still my student to this day.
    Waly, most of my students are ex special forces guys, they have been there and done that. So for them sparring is for a teen.
    Okay as for me, I'm competed in martial arts tournament in 1977-83. Mostly in Kata, Weapon, and Sparring. My firstime sparring, I was fighting number one rated national fighter, his name is George M. It was 3 points or in three minutes. No glove or protection required. Well, I was lucky then, I won in less than a minute. Not bad for someone who never sparr.
    Kata i was competing with his brother who just comeback from the Battle of Atlanta and won the national with his Superman Kata. I bet him with my shotokan kata-Gojushiho. In Weapons, I beat national ranking in weapon. I have collected over 200 trophies during my competition years. I use to have a dojo, between my students and I, we are collecting more than 500 trophies.
    From being bouncer and back stage security chief for Rock Concert tour, I have been involved a lots in brawls. So I have been there and done that. I speak with my experience.
    Any questions?
    Warm regards, a very warm one ;)
    Tristan



    Regards,
    Wali[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2006
  13. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    I honestly don’t think everyone does martial arts purely for self defence, im sure some do it simply for enjoyment and health. I guess it depends on the individual and their life experiences though.

    I think it’s inevitable and unavoidable that there will be injury’s if you pressurise people. I think there is a difference between sparing and a real fight though, primarily a different state of mind and therefore different manner of response and behaviour. When an animal fights it does not think (logic) about what it is going to do, it just does it (instinct). That is the difference between sparing and fighting. One uses the logic side of the brain (sparing) whilst the other uses the instinctive side of the brain (fighting). If you really apply pressure that change will inevitably take place and then it’s impossible to keep it safe simply because people will act without thinking. Not their fault really, just a natural reaction and the situation you put them in.
    Finally I would say you know what a person really owns when they fight but probably not when they spar.
    Have you ever seen a person approach a real fight with a sparing mentality? I have, he got his ass kicked big time. Funny thing was that he was a martial artist (Thai boxer) and the guy he fought and was beating by had probably never set his foot into a MA class in his life. In the end of the day it’s all down to?
    I do think sparing is usefull though.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2006
  14. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    The Sparring Game

    I posted this on another Silat board, ironically, over the weekend:


    Depending on which style of martial arts you train, and the philosophy of individual teachers, sparring holds different meanings at various levels. Some schools and styles don’t spar at all, or pass off drills as sparring, saying it’s flow. Most schools that do sparring of some sort usually promote it as a competitive point-scoring system, a method of training with a definitive “winner” and “loser” at the end of the round. Sparring has the potential to be much more, but to accomplish this the instructor must be exposed to many different and varied approaches from several different arts, particularly those outside his own.

    There are two methods of sparring in the Edmonds Academy: Point Sparring, and Flow Sparring. Flow sparring is where you perfect your timing, flow and attributes in a spontaneous environment, point sparring is where you bring it to the table. Full speed point sparring is not developmental, it’s not the place to work on your weak points in fighting. It’s the presentation of technique, and often used as a measure for your progress in whatever martial art you are training. This in itself is not a bad thing, because it gives us a good criteria for our skills. The downside is that it steers away from attribute development and leans toward competition, focusing on “beating the other guy” instead of “self development”.

    Flow sparring is much different, and much more mutually beneficial for both participants. There is no time limit, no points, and no pressure to “score”. Flow sparring starts at the contact range, both players arms touching. In the beginning the tempo is slow and relaxed, with both players moving at the same speed, and not changing the rhythm, or “speeding up” to beat the opponent. That is really the only rule to this approach, if one participant is open, he may not accelerate his technique to close the gap or defend himself, he must maintain the same tempo as before. This prevents the game from gradually building speed and getting out of hand, where all you have is a pushing match instead of clean lines. When an opponent is trapped, locked or open, the nature of this exercise calls for him to go with his opponent’s technique, and let the scenario play out WITHOUT losing flow. Now, this doesn’t make the score “three to nothing, my lead”!! It’s important to realize this, because otherwise the pressure to retaliate will grow, and you will stop exploring technique. Soon, both players are locked down, without a clue as to how they got there. It takes a skilled, knowledgeable instructor to guide them through the beginning levels of this, because it’s a much more difficult concept to convey and grasp than standard point sparring, and overcoming the urge to blast through the other guy takes repetitive practice before moving on. This is the same theory used to begin sparring with stick and knife also, as well as empty hand vs. weapons.

    As you progress in control, technique, and overall comfort in flow, you can play at varying speeds with different focal points of intent. Some approaches to this are:

    1: Isolation
    Isolate certain techniques to stress your weak points, i.e. sparring with just your left hand, using only one type of entry or counter, etc.

    2: Blocking, no Attack
    Check, parry, negate or block all incoming attacks, but do not retaliate or counter attack. This will teach you to recognize an opening when one presents itself. It will also teach you to wait for the best time to enter, and not “rush in” on anything that you think might be there.

    3: Attack, no Blocking
    This is a simple technique, but it has fundamental value that must not be ignored. Knowing both WHAT and WHEN to strike is the whole game, and timing takes the critical issue here.

    4: Trapping with Footwork
    Position is the operative word when it comes to trapping, and footwork is the only way to achieve it. A common mistake in trapping is to rush in on a linear path when a trap has been achieved. In Wing Chun centerline is everything, so to them this is correct. However, a person with even moderate skill will see the attack coming on the centerline & struggle to avoid it. Using the circular footwork, you learn to maximize your position, instead of creating the ram effect so common in the trapping game.

    5: Changing Levels
    This technique teaches sudden drops and recovery to imbalance your opponent, and is the providence of the Indonesian styles. The principle is similar to that of many grappling schools, pull when pushed, push when pulled. Instead of continuing the motion, experiment with jinking back in the direction you dropped from, thusly creating a type of rattle in your opponent’s equilibrium. You will have to become competent at maintaining your balance in motion to achieve this.

    6: All Locks
    In this concept, incoming attacks are dealt with through parry/negation, and eventually played to a jointlock of some kind. Again, although the concept sounds simple, this will not work unless both players understand it’s not a contest. The receiver must flow WITH the feeder, go along with his locks and he flows with yours, minimal, if any, resistance. This is an especially cautious point, because clamping down on an arm that’s hyper-extended or hyper-flexed can often lead to irreparable damage, so too much care in the beginning cannot be stressed enough.

    Understand, these approaches are designed to work a specific skill, or focus on only a few attributes at a time. There are dozens more drills like these, and none of this is written in stone, there is plenty of room for invention and improvisation. Experiment with mixing a couple or a few of the above approaches, and you will find a concept that is completely unique to you.

    Sparring isn’t a streetfight, and it’s important to know the difference. Although you can go “hard rock” in sparring and really ring each other’s bell, the intent is still quite different than the real thing. The mental and physical commitment of a person who has decided to kill you can be overwhelming to someone who has only done point fighting, using a certain set of rules. This is a critical distinction, and any good instructor will point this out and train for the eventuality of real life. That being said, although experience is really the only teacher, sparring is the only way to achieve real flow, because it's the only controlled training atmosphere that's TOTALLY spontaneous. You can go at different speeds, and different focus of intent, use different weapons or empty hands, mix and match how you want. Every session will build skill in a way that premeditated exercises beginning with "Okay, attack me like THIS" never will.
     
  15. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Sparring

    Hmm. Well, we in Stevan Plinck's branch of Sera are closer to Brother Tristan's philosophy. I've been training about ten years, and while we do work the circle, one-on-one, there have always been limitations. So by your definition, I guess we aren't really sparring.

    So far, we haven't gone at it full-bore with all our tools. I don't see that in my immediate future.

    Guru Plinck restricts our bouts for specific reasons. At first, we were limited to one role or the other -- defender or attacker. Sometimes the exchange would be designed entirely for positional set. The attacks have been limited in number -- one punch, or two, or three. No elbows. Upper body, but no kicking. Upper and lower body, but only one kind of kick. Upper body, lower body, any attack, but no sweeps. Set for a beset. Set for a sapu. Distance practice -- always starting outside knife range. Trying to draw an attack with footwork. Advancing timing, Retarding timing. Stealing distance so your opponent doesn't see it. Whatever attack you want, but ending in a sapu. Or finishing in a beset. (We usually skip takedowns when working out on the concrete floor. Position for them, but don't finish.)

    For us, at this stage, the idea is to learn distance and timing, this being our primary sparring goal. None of the sessions have ever been at full-power, anything-goes, and I'm guessing they probably won't ever be.

    Even with careful restrictions, there have been injuries, and we now wear mouthguards and sometimes grappling gloves. The idea isn't to win a match, it's to learn what we need to learn, against a friend in the training area who might thump you, but who isn't out to kill you ...

    While we certainly can use silat for self-defense, our version is not primarily a self-defense art, it's a fighting art. In self-defense, the attack might be quick and unexpected, and the attacker isn't going to know what you have until he gets there. It's all going to be over in a few seconds if you do it right.

    In a situation wherein you face a trained fighter who knows that you are also trained, the self-defense strategy and tactics have to shift considerably -- the kind of surprise you spring will have to be different. He know you are gonna do something. He could be as good as you, bigger, stronger, faster, armed, and more than one of him, and this is where mastery of an art matters, not against a drunk in a bar who skies a wild roundhouse at you.

    I didn't start the study of silat for self-defense -- I already had rank and years of training in other arts, as had most of the senior students in our branch. I started it because I realized it was better than what I had, more efficient, and I couldn't not train in it. It chose me.

    If somebody wants to learn enough self-defense to deal with a bar brawler and they ask, I tell them silat Sera is not the way to go. It takes a long time to ingrain the training -- it's not a quick fix. There are other arts better for that.

    My Sera isn't being taught for several hours every day to young men or women in the village, day in, day out, it's being taught to older guys for a few hours a week. It takes longer to learn it that way.

    It's a pretty simple art. But "simple" is the not the same as "easy ..."
     
  16. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Incorrect. Nowhere do I state that sparring is important in the early stage. I don't see sparring before 10 years practice 'early stage'.

    Again, I never said this was PURELY the purpose. I said most people that come to train it, come to learn that aspect primarily. Please learn to be more discerning with people's comments.

    Again, you are going to the extreme. My post was about pressure testing the silat, and notr about how sparring should play a CENTRAL role in one's practice. We do more kembangan than sparring, but still recognise the importance of BALANCE.

    The goal was explained ny me in my very 1st paragraph. PRESSURE TEST YOUR SILAT.

    It is this lack of pressure testing that has made silat in certain places the laughing stock of the martial arts community. The original question was isolating the wide range of silat practices to just sparring. This doesn't imply that other aspects are neglected. We cannot cover ALL apects in EVERY thread. This is why we can post multiple threads... :p

    Again, a simple question was somehow turned into philosophical pondering. There is a time for pondering, a time for rest, a time for play, a time to pray and a time to fight. My question was aimed at the last part. Do not make assumptions based on a question posted on an internet forum, which you have taken the wrong way TOTALLY.

    I re-iterate that only the seniors partake in sparring. It is knowing how to evade, slip etc... that make them able to spar. We wouldn't put people who, as you say can't block known strikes... to spar. I would expect though, that after a few years practice, they would be able to, or they haven't been taught properly.

    This is why it is important to make the attacks random and non-silat at times. It also helps to 'play' with people of other disciplines, so that the body learns to deal with different types of attacks.

    Then teach them properly! We are taught properly from the very 1st lesson. Why do you keep assuming that we will place people who are not capable of the basics into a full sparring environment? I will re-iterate again.. ONLY THE MOST SENIOR OF STUDENT SPAR FULL ON.

    That's great.


    That's also great. So you have the experience of applying what you have learnt in a PRESSURE TESTED environment. Why cheat your students of the same thing? You have the opportunity for them to test their silat n a relatively safe environment, why waste it.

    Oh, and it Wali, not Waly... :love:

    Phew.. my eyes hurt from typing and moving stuff around the screen so much. I better get back to some serious sparring now with jungle gorillas and elephants... :D :D

    Peace,
    Wali
     
  17. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    That's also great. So you have the experience of applying what you have learnt in a PRESSURE TESTED environment. Why cheat your students of the same thing? You have the opportunity for them to test their silat n a relatively safe environment, why waste it.

    Hmmmm, its getting personal here :confused:
    Now you are accusing me of cheating?
    Whiskey tango foxtrot!
    Let me ask you personal question, if you have nothing to hide, you may answer it or PM me.
    How long you have been in silat?
    Have you ever fight out side your class?
    How old are you?
    Finally, Is teaching silat your a primary income? And if you do, then that's answer all my questions.
    Remember Wali, talk is cheap, some Indonesian silat player bragging and claimed: "The most fear man on earth." I hope you are not one of those peoploe.
    If you are good as you said, you do not need to confince people of how good you are. Finally, you do not need to shout, especially to the people older than you. Did you teacher teach you to shout back to your elder?


    Oh, and it Wali, not Waly... :love:

    Okay Waly...I meant Wali :rolleyes:
     
  18. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Hey Orang,

    I wasn't accusing you of cheating. It is an expression, just that. If I caused you offense, I apologise. Nothing I typed was meant as an attack, personal or otherwise.

    I do not claim to be good. I just try my best. You took my initial innocent question, and it spiralled downwards from there. We can put that down to misinterpretation on both our parts.

    I certainly have nothing to hide. I have been doing silat since 1992. I am 31 years old. I train under Steve Benitez at Eastwest Studios in Hendon, London. Feel free to visit our website at www.eastweststudios.com

    I have had to use silat on numerous occassions outside of training, and I thank God that I was properly prepared for them all.

    I don't claim invulnerability, super-human strength or any magical ablities. I don't claim to be the baddest in the land, and if you do a search through any of my previous posts from post #1 (not just this thread), you will see that my intentions here are not to brag or bully.

    I don't get involved in politics or internet fights, and you have answered my initial question quite clearly now, so thanks for that.

    As for the shouting... While capitals are an accepted form of Internet shouting, my posts weren't meant to portray that.

    I wish you luck with your students, and look forward to your future posts.

    Perhaps you can answer the questions you have asked me also? ;)

    Your brother in silat.
    Wali
     
  19. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Which is a better more accurate way to see what someone really owns, is it by watching their Kembangan like in old times or watching them spar?
    If it is true that watching someone spar will reveal what they own then a good sparer should also have good kembangan, is that always the case? Therefore the best sparers in the class will also be the ones that have the best kembangan in the class, just like to know peoples thoughts on this.
     
  20. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Salam Wali.
    That's cool! We may both missinterpreted things...Lets by gone be by gone (is that a saying?) ;) Thanks for your candid answer, you are a gentleman after all.

    For Narrue, to be honest, I would rather watch sambut than kembangan. In sambut you saw the technique application being applied while in kembangan is just that kembangan.
    The highest product of sambut are when both students executing 6 different strikes/block or more continuesly in one set sambut, then reverse the attacker becomes defender five times before their stop to take breather then do it all over again. If both did it effectively and efficiently, they look like war dance, precise, effective and energy efficient (smooth). If that the case, I will take sambut any day. However, kembangan is good for solo practice, and with music it would enlighten tyour body and soul...maybe :).
    Between kembangan and free sparr, its depends...;)
    Hey nah, got to shut up,
    Tristan
     

Share This Page