I recently had a disagreement on a Ninjitsu thread. However, the disagreement was nothing to do with Ninjitsu Unfortunately I let myself be drawn in and maybe got a little irate with one particular poster There were a few posters who claimed that it is impossible to defend against a knife and the only option is to run away. I believe...it is quite foolish not to train in knife defense, as certainly in the UK, if you are going to be seriously injured or killed it will usually be with a knife. 50% of muggings in the UK are at knifepoint. If you train for self defense, ignoring knife work is profoundly stupid. The 'run away' approach is also far from practical, as a knife attack is usually going to happen in a secluded area. A mugger is obviously not going to strike in a open area Any thoughts? I presume we all do knifework. Edit: Kinda kicks off from here. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49679&page=32&pp=15 The guy was asking for a video of defense against a live blade & all I could find on the net was a Pekiti Tirsia one.
Over here guns trump knives for the working criminal, but your point is well taken. I'm kind of glad someone's teaching the mall ninjas to run away from people with knives. Richard Pryor said it best <talking about people kicking knives out of hands and stuff like that> "Mother****** will cut that <untreated effluent> all up. If a guy comes at you with a knife you run, if you can. If you can't run, FLY!" Given that, yes it is possible to learn to defend against a knife. A lot of people are quite good at it and have the scars to prove it. If you want self defense it's important to learn to deal with what you're going to face. If you have something and fight like hell you might get hurt. You might die. But you might win. If you give up you will die. What else can you say?
The Language of the Blade Below is an article from the knife section in a book I am writing about Silat, Eskrima & Kuntao. It is one of my better articles & addresses the various arguments for and against knife defense/fighting/call it what you will - Including the one your argumentative friend brought up. It's a little wordy, but well worth the read. Hope it helps! Bobbe The Language of the Blade This is an important area that is seldom addressed. The knife has its own unique theory of use, its own language. Wielding it competently isn't a casual skill, it takes years to achieve anything resembling mastery. There are no hard & fast rules for knife play, you must take into consideration so many different variables that it would be impossible to categorize them minimally. If you leave the concept of "Style" out for a moment, you will find a large portion of blade craft is ubiquitous. It has no real home other than itself, and therefore can lend itself to any style of technique. Due to the nebulous nature of knife fighting, there are also many abstract theories & motions that can only live in their own category, perhaps "dirty tricks & sneaky moves" being the most succinct. Many people get caught up in the aspects of style in the martial arts, what system has the best moves, the most complete repertoire, hundreds of forms, etc. This is a mistake when addressing the knife, you should instead examine the weapon itself. What does it do? Unlike the stick, the blade is at once powerful without the use of muscles, and lethal without the backing of a martial art. It only has to touch you to do damage, A child could kill with it in seconds, by accident. You must approach this area of training with utter seriousness, and develop it to a high degree. You don't have to necessarily be strong to use a knife, the knife has all the power. It only has to touch you to do damage. All the knifer really provides is a weapon delivery system and it can come in at varied speeds, with erratic motions and awkward angles. The sight of this can be more frightening than the application of it. A common saying in many Martial Arts schools is “Nobody is more dangerous and unpredictable than a beginner. You have no idea how they’re going to move.” Think of a person with a knife in his hand, moving in this kind of unpredictable lurch. Even to the trained knifer, this is a nightmare. The area of practical knife skills are sorely neglected in many martial arts, and for whatever reason, many instructors have an insurmountable aversion to learning and teaching it. I think this stems largely from the fact that knife skills can’t be as easily classified or categorized as empty hand styles. I mean, you can see the logic behind a Wing Chun fighter’s philosophy of “We fight close, because others are uncomfortable with that range”, or the Aikido “Blend with your attacker’s motion & he will be defenseless” Jiu Jitsu is easily identifiable as the brutal older brother of Judo and Aikido. Even simplistic kick and punch arts like Karate or Taekwondo have an immediately identifiable value as far as they go. But there is a multitude of conflicting theories and patterns that are at once expert and suicidal at the same time. Knifework cannot be dragged through the same obstacle course you came through with your empty hand skills. It takes a certain kind of instructor to face this truth, because honesty demands courage. You can see why the knife is so avoided, or often as not, approached so unrealistically. If you examine the end result of many of the aforementioned arts, you will see a recurring pattern of “block – strike - kick – grapple - subdue”. Maybe not in that exact order, but many of the elements are always present. Although serious injury or death is not impossible, it is rarely, if ever, the chief aim. In fact, restraint and control are always touted when training traditional arts, particularly the Japanese arts. This is where the knife truly separates itself, for the pattern here is “draw – kill” or at least “draw – maim”. Such a stark contrast holds little interest for someone who has dedicated his life to a twelve-step martial arts program, especially one with a boatload of ethics tied behind it. It is cold and harsh, with an unforgiving attitude in combat and very little (if any) moralistic code behind it. It is, however, truth in it’s purest sense: People can die easily, especially if they are unprepared for reality. I believe truth often carries with it the inherent necessity for change. The most common expression when real change enforces itself is “Why didn’t anyone warn us?” Truly, they did not hear. Or, hearing, they chose not to listen. I have left a couple of large areas alone until now: Mindset & Legalities. I'll start with the legal: Very obviously, murder is against the law. In most states, aggressive, unnecessary or overuse of deadly force is against the law. In some states, just carrying a bladed weapon is illegal. It is important that you understand the law, not just in self-defense, but also in every aspect of your existence, because it will always be a dictating factor no matter where you live. Your continued freedom will depend on your skillful manipulation of it. The law is a juggernaut, not a precision instrument, or perhaps I should say law enforcement is. It doesn't matter if you're a good guy or a bad guy, if it lurches toward you your chances are always 50-50 of a positive outcome. Maybe the court will see things your way, or maybe you will get a DA with a vigilante jones. Maybe witnesses will back you up and you get off scott-free, or maybe the gangbanger you offed has friends, and they find out who you are from the court proceedings, and murder your family in retaliation. Not that I think the police officers can really do anything about this process, or are responsible for it’s machinery. The criminal justice system in America is much more severe on cops than criminals, and I for one don't envy them their jobs. Now, there are people who will say "If you had to use a knife, what did you do provoke it?" or "Every time you use a knife, you are breaking the law". There's truth to that. But it's really only one part of a larger argument, there are many points left dangling in the wind and they should be addressed as well. For instance, it's just as illegal for THEM to kill YOU, as it is for you to kill them in self-defense. Yet, nobody ever brings this up, it's almost always lost in translation if you had to finish the fight by killing the attacker. I have heard many an argument start with "If you had to (cut/maim/kill) them, you had no business being involved in the first place." Sometimes, IT chooses US. If you are backed into a corner, or the lives of your loved ones are at stake, well, that's not exactly the time to be saying "Wait! Consider the legal ramifications of this!!" Like my friend Mushtaq says, there's no way to cure being dead. You have different options open for you in different situations, but I see it like this: If the mad dog is looking for you, outrun it if you can. If you can't, your only hope for survival is to turn & face it. And put that mother***ker into the ground. People who have been in some sort of public institution will have discovered this earlier than many who are ardent martial artists. It’s a lesson that is taught in the first few hours of your arrival in an orphanage, children’s home, reform school, or prison: Make an example of the first person who steps across the line, and everyone else gets the message. If you don’t, prepare to become terribly in touch with your feminine side. Or with God. So, what I think: If it comes to it, do your best not to get caught. Don't stand around & gloat, dispose of the weapon, burn the body & your clothes, prepare & rehearse a story in case you're questioned GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE. I have been on BOTH sides of the law, and it usually doesn’t matter to them "who swung first", especially if there's a body. The law demands justice, and I for one will go home to my wife and family instead of "owning up" to it. I have done worse, and not cried all night about it. Mindset: This is just as important as physical skill when dealing with a knife. Mindset has different labels, Vunak calls it "Killer Instinct", but essentially it's the ability to instantly respond with equal or superior deadly force than your attacker. I might caveat that by adding "...And not cry all night about it". Having this ability, to respond to an attack & be perfectly willing to do whatever it takes to live through it, will often be a deciding factor in an altercation. Hesitation comes from uncertainty, from being in a situation you are uncomfortable in. A half-assed defense will not route a dedicated attack in my personal experience, but for the occasional exception (i.e. attacker is on drugs), most garden-variety thugs will not attack if there is a good chance of them getting the worst of it, and if your attitude is "I'm willing to die, & I'm willing to take your sorry ass with me for amusement on my journey" chances are they will back off. If not, you are at least equipped with all the tools you need to survive. Earlier I mentioned disposing of a body that you may have been responsible for sending to the afterlife. Killing isn’t something that is easily gotten used to, and you have to sacrifice something of yourself to achieve it. If you have successfully taken a life, it will normally take everything you have to keep you head on relatively straight to be able to think and function in the way that you must for the next few hours. This, again, is providence of mindset. You don’t really have to prepare yourself to be skillful at killing, but just to be resilient at keeping your head under extreme levels of stress. Unfortunately, the single best way to gain this ability is lead a hard life, and be a cold *******. And that comes with a whole truckload of emotional crap as well as if you ever actually have to DO it. Marc MacYoung's excellent website has a section that talks about the hell of conscience over something horrific you have done, i.e. killed someone. The person writing it speaks of the reminder of your actions coming back to haunt you when you least expect it, no matter how hard you try or how deep you bury it. This is true to a point, some people are wired that way. Others will never think twice about it. Still others will be somber for a period, and then gradually accept what has happened, and get on with their lives. And that, in a nutshell, is my point: If you are attacked and live through it, you will be suffering some degree of emotional trauma, whether you off the guy or not. I have been through situations where I survived an assault from beating the crap out of the other guy, and others where I survived because they arbitrarily decided not to kill me. Of the latter, I have a scar on the right side my face, just above the lip, where the barrel-sight of a shotgun cut it enroute to being rammed down the back of my throat. Believe me when I say that the emotional trauma from NOT being able to, or having done anything is as maddening as having sent somebody to the hospital or the morgue. Either way, you still have to look at yourself in the mirror, and square it with yourself. You need to think about the end result right now, and consider your alternatives & the conclusions they will bring. Running is certianly NOT the best answer to every solution, my wife can't run as fast as I can, nor is she a product of a hellish childhood. Therefore, she doesn't have the skill at threat recognition that I do, and I often see things coming WAY before she even figures out we are in danger. I cannot just jet the scene and leave her to fend for herself. There is a time when a perforated lung is the exact answer to an altercation, and it must be said that nothing thwarts an attacker like an unexpected tracheotomy. Also, consider this: If the worst happened, let's say you did everything by the LEGAL book, but you or someone you loved suffered/died anyway, do you know what you would say, in the aftermath of loss and regret? You would say, verbatim: "I would have done ANYTHING in the world to prevent this." Well, guess what, cowboy: Killing is what it took. And you only get one shot, if that. I am trying to be as realistic as possible here, and speak from my own experience as opposed to supposition. This is probably one of the most unsavory articles I’ve ever written, but I hope I didn’t offend anyone. My apologies if that is the case.
Good morning... This is an issue that always bother me...For some unkonwn reason, too many people get to excited about knife and knife techniques. First of all, if you learn silat from a good silat player, he/she will tell you that silat is weapon based technique. Therefore, you must imbeded in your mind that any hand strikes or kicks throwing at you is equal to a knife strike. Don't get hit= don't get cut! 2. If the person intend to kill you with knife, most likely you will seriously wounded or be killed. Why? Because people who wants to kill you, is usually does not show his knife until his knife all ready in you. The only chance to survive on a knife attack is when the attacker's objective is not to kill you or just wants to scares you for something, but his first intention is not to kill you. However, this could be escalated to his wanting to kill you. Therefore, it would a small window of opportunity for knife self-defense and because most likely you are facing your attacker face to face. REMEMBER, when you decided to be involve in knife fight...Two out three, you will get cut/stub. 3. With all do respect, the video knife self-defense that you just bought...hmmmm? Oh well, just remember, if you see the master perform a knife self-defense, where the attacker stub once than wait...and the master do the cutting and slashing? That's the most misleading self-defense that I ever saw. No one will cut or stub and stop....So the best way to review a video knife fighting is to watch the details. For example, when attacker attack, see what the defender do, what his body and his reaction at the same time put yourself as an attacker..and ask yourself, do I will stay there not doing anything while part of his body is an inch for my knife? 4. People got killed from knife wound but not immeditely, this is not a movie. Most people die from lost of blood and shock. Therefore before his soul went, he have the time to take you out too. Prepare for the wild counter-attack, he will be like a wounded animal that wants to hurt you BADLY. 5. Killing with knife is very personal, no matter what the reasons is. The event stay with you as long as you breath. The memory is painful of reminder of what we becomes as a human that will do anything to another human being to accomplish our mission..whatever it was. And I could be wrong too, as usual Tristan
"With all do respect, the video knife self-defense that you just bought...hmmmm?" If you're talking about the video Gajah posted, remember it's a drill click on this Orang if you want to have a look at Pekiti - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXfZ9C9vJso"]YouTube[/ame]
No, I'm not reffering to what Gajah video links. I've seen many knife videos. My opinion is still the same. Drill is good, but when you are using the drill to promote the complecent of the danger fighting with someone who have a knife in their hand. You become part of the problem and NOT the solution. Again...Remember, 2 out 3 you will get cut or stub. Think hard about it. Anyone who can talk at ease about killing someone with their techniques. Most likely he never in the life and death situation let alone have kill another human being. That was my take and I could be wrong too....
well seeing as you weren't talking about the video Gajah posted, my post is completely irrelevant oh and personally I think the odds of getting cut or stabbed in knife attack are alot higher than 66 % "Anyone who can talk at ease about killing someone with their techniques. Most likely he never in the life and death situation let alone have kill another human being." Is that directed to GT Gaje (in the video link I posted) or just another generalisation ?
Higher than 66%? Any sources on that finding? This is mine 1. If you are faster, more skills, and willing..you win, meaning you will cut or stub him, 33% 2. If both of you have the same skills, speed and willingnes? Its draw meaning both of you will get cut or stub, 33% 3. If he faster than you, better skill, and willing? He won, meaning you will get cut or stub, wounded or kill, 33% 4. 1% is your luck, may be the Higher power wants you to survive. Oss, I'm speaking in general term, however, if the shoes fit? You decide.. This is a beginer opinion, so take it as such. If you have any suggestion, I'm willing to listen and learn. Thanks, Tristan
"Higher than 66%? Any sources on that finding?" Mine is an opinion, just like yours here: "1. If you are faster, more skills, and willing..you win, meaning you will cut or stub him, 33% 2. If both of you have the same skills, speed and willingnes? Its draw meaning both of you will get cut or stub, 33% 3. If he faster than you, better skill, and willing? He won, meaning you will get cut or stub, wounded or kill, 33% 4. 1% is your luck, may be the Higher power wants you to survive." Irrespective of the numbers, one thing we both agree on is the principle that in a knife attack there is strong chance you will be cut...your view is just abit more optimistic than mine that's all mainly because I think lady luck plays a bigger role. "Oss, I'm speaking in general term, however, if the shoes fit? You decide" Well I don't think the 'shoe fits', that is the reason I replied - so that anyone viewing this thread would not read your generalisation and apply it to GT Gaje; especially since you had quoted the video link when you were speaking in 'general terms'. But seeing as you weren't referring to GT Gaje there is no issue, it was only in the interest of clarity that I replied.
Believe me, I'm certainly not taking knife attacks lightly and have no illusions to the dangers. A friend was stabbed to death a few years ago. My only real contention to the other thread was to the blanket statements like "it is impossible to defend against a knife attack" or "if someone attacks you with a knife, there is nothing you can do" etc. I have had/seen a few real life situations.... I have a scar from an Ex with a breadknife....but I'll not go into that I have seen a friend with no MA training disarm a knife! Luck, Instinct? Or an inspired response. He punched the kid's hand & knocked the knife well out of harms way. Kid ran away as fast as... Although not knives, in the days before Silat, I did a bit of bouncing for a while and was attacked with broken bottles on a few occasions & only got 'bottled' on one occasion. I still managed to 'restrain' the guy though. (Really 'restrain' him ) 2 young 'uns tried to mug me a few years ago. I KO'd one and the other produced a knife. However, it was pretty obvious he was worried about his self and he backed off down the street holding the knife out. Needless to say I got out of the area pretty sharpish. So, I think I better re-phrase. Does extensive knife training increase the chance of survival in an attack? (With no opportunity to escape ) I certainly feel more 'aware' of knives since training with them.
Knife Yes. There are people who have used their training to survive a a knife attack. I once took a knife away from a mugger on a subway. Of course, I think he was stoned out of his gourd and he probably saw three of me and didn't know which one to stab. After it was oer, I had to go and find my right shoe, which had come off during a kick and flown down the walkway. That was a long time ago and far away, and using an art I believe to be much less efficient and effective than silat. Had I known then what I do now, I would have run like like a cat on crank ...
Having trained with a knife must help somewhat in a knife attack situation but how much help it will be obviously depends on the guy that is attacking you. It’s all relative, some people are just natural fighters so it’s a good idea never to be too confident with your ability’s. You know the saying, never underestimate your opponent. I think a lot of knife drills are not realistic. You’re standing in a ready position, you know what he is going to do, he makes his movement obvious and the movement itself is often not realistic or natural. Most people who get stabbed on the street don’t even see the knife until they feel a sharp pain and look down to see blood. So being trained with a knife will improve your chances in a knife attack situation, does not mean that you will win though. Its also worth remembering that if you worked as a bouncer the guys you are dealing with are often drunk or on drugs so being sober you automatically have a good advantage over them. The chances are that the guy that attacks you on the street won’t be drunk and you won’t have that advantage. If you are in a situation where you know you can’t run and you know that person’s intention is to stab you with that knife should you wait until he attacks and then respond? That is how most knife drills are done but im not convinced that it’s the best method. Notice that your friend attacked the guy holding the knife by punching his hand i.e. he did not wait to be attacked by the blade. If he had responded to an attack the story might be very different. Why give the attacker the element of surprise and have to deal with the unpredictable manner in which he may attack with the blade?
Knife Stuff Going bare against a blade is gonna get you cut. Against an expert with that blade, it's going to get you cut *bad*. And yet, people still think they can step in and do a block and pass and strip the blade, no problem. Good way to get killed. Here's part of a note I just post on the usenet martial arts group. I thought it would fit here ... I thought the old X-block against a knife was pretty bad, but the July '06 Black Belt (another Chuck cover) has one that beats it. It's on page 104, in an article by Paul Vunak and Bruce Corrigan. In a six-picture sequence, Vunak "threatens" the unarmed Corrigan with a high and apparently slow-motion single-swipe of his training blade. Corrigan drops, and does a single-leg takedown, then grabs Vunak by both ankles, stands, and does a groin kick I am astounded at how stupid this is. It reminds me of what those in the movie biz call an idiot-plot -- only way the plot works is if everybody connected to it is an idiot. Like, say, the first Aliens movie. Vunak, after waving his knife at Corrigan, stands there with the knife in space, his arm apparently frozen solid of a moment by the act some bored god, and doesn't drop his hand at all until he hits the ground flat on his back, at which time the knife is *still* higher than Corrigan. Anybody who couldn't make the sign of the "Z" and then plant that blade in the attacker's spine as he shoots is probably not bright enough to figure out which end of the knife cuts and which doesn't ...
Um... I tend to think knife attacks fall into two major categories. Total generalisation I know, but for the sake of the discussion.... Firstly, someone with intent to rob or threaten. This person will show the knife for the purpose of the act, and does not intend to kill you. Secondly, someone who intends to kill you (for whatever reason). This person will conceal the knife. First, you stand a chance. Second, you are pretty much screwed as you wont realise the knife is in play until too late. However, I supect most people are more likely to come across the first type...unless they have really upset someone A mugger wants your wallet & to get out of there fast. They can have my wallet. (Actually I always carry two in some parts of the world! One with a small amount of money in to give away to muggers, corrupt police and the like). Obviously the dynamics change considerably with, an attack or when friends and family are involved. Narrue, yes drunks are generally (but not always) predicatable & on the whole rubbish fighters. Can be harder to hurt though And my friend, well, he was Australian Foolish maybe, but who knows? One thing I learnt courtesy of a couple of severe beatings in my youth was, never ever hesitate if you need to attack.
Steve, I used to think the ol' X block was cool....20 years ago. Until someone showed me it was a great way to get both wrists cut
I agree wholeheartly witht the above assertion !That was my point all along Been through both! 1972 Times squire, someone pointed a knife at me and ask for money. I was lucky, he tripped and fell on his back. His other 3 friends closing in, I cocked my .45 and pointed at them..and they all back down. Again I was lucky. I was young and stupid then, now I will follow Brother Steve and run like hell. 1970, Somewhere that we are not suppose to be, Joint Special Opreation "JRPC" Hump the jungles for two days, arrived at destination. The compound is heavily guarded. We have to take out the centries.. The rest is a f%$#@g nightmares! I'm not against people practicing with knife. But too many silat players instead of teaching and learning how to use a knife, they used the special occasition to demo a techniques that was never be proofen worked in a real istuation and acted like he have been been there and done that. And most of this people probably never on street fights let alone knife fights. But they can talk or write like a tough pendekar All I can tell you this, you can practice as much as you can, but when the time comes, the practice end and time to act, I mean act like your life defend on it. And I could be wrong too, Tristan
I also agree with both points. When I was younger I encountered the first type of situation (not with a knife, but someone pulled an awl). At that age you refuse to run, so I encountered the guy. I managed to evade his attacks as I have learned and managed to cool down the situation by talking. After it I only had some minor scratches on my lower arms. Afterwards I concluded the following: 1. I was happy that I reacted without thinking in the way as it was thought to me. I always thought that I would be scared in such a situation, but strangely I was not and I had the feeling that I was very focused and clear of mind. 2. I realised that I was a big fool and that you should not have your pride get you into life threatening situations. And decided that if I ever end up in a situation like that again I better run if possible or do something else to prevent a confrontation. 3. By this forum I concluded that the attacker had no intention of killing me, but only wanted to scare and threaten me. If the attacker really had the intention to kill me, then I think I would have had more serious injuries or would even have been killed. Garuda...
I think most have concluded that it’s the best option to run like the wind but if you can’t run is it better to: A Wait until the attacker strikes with the blade, dodge/block and counter attack B Assessing the situation you know the attacker means to use the blade so you swiftly attack without hesitation before he can launch a strike. Both are risky but which is least risky?
To be quite honest, I wouldn't know which tactic to go for in a theoretical sense. But, I suspect if trapped and faced with a knife I would pull out all the stops and not hesitate. Try to do as much damage as possible. After all, if you wait, or don't act you are going to get stabbed/killed anyway. Once again, this is about surviving & getting out of there as fast as possible. Not about showing off your fancy moves I think sometimes those who do not train in knife awareness assume that those who do are making outrageous claims. No one is claiming to have super powers or be able to disarm every attack It's merely about increasing the chance of survival.
