Significance of Ki Bohn Soo 1 - or, curriculum construction

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by coc716, Nov 21, 2009.

  1. coc716

    coc716 Just Some Guy

    The past few days I've had to pass a lot of time, so instead of sitting there being bored I spent some time thinking about the Kuk Sool curriculum.

    The curriculum is fairly well ordered. Ki Bohn Soo isn't necessarily an easy technique set, but like its name states it's not "beginner" or "easy" but rather "foundation". From there other basic concepts start to build in Sohk Mohk Soo, Eui Bohk Soo, a different track with Maek Chi Ki and Maek Cha Ki... but you can see how things build. In fact, in many respects it all comes together in Dahn Doh Mahk Ki (ignore the actual/questionable knife defense skills and look at the way the techniques come together).

    So there seems to be some purpose in the way the curriculum was constructed. Of course, there's some debate. For instance, I've heard of some teaching Kwan Juhl Ki much earlier in the curriculum and that having positive benefits upon student understanding of the rest of the material. While Sohn Ppae Ki comes first in the textbook, even my old instructor said it wasn't good to teach first (I forget his exact reasons, but it made sense at the time I heard it).

    Now if we look a little more fine-grained, consider Ki Bohn Soo #1. What is the grander significance of this technique? Is it attempting to be Kuk Sool's signature technique? Notice how it's the first technique taught. Then notice how this technique crops up again and again in other technique sets and again too is the first taught, e.g. Jahp Ki #1, Poh Bahk Sool #1, Jee Pahng Ee Sool #1, even Ki Bohn Bohn #1 is a variation. Why is this? What is so significant (or perhaps, what does In Hyuk Suh and others that formalized the Kuk Sool curriculum) about this twisting arm lock that it was made the #1 technique?

    So what's the point of my posting? A desire to start discussion on the construction and organization of the Kuk Sool curriculum (and while I enjoy the political threads, change of topic is nice too). What are your thoughts on the way things are organized? Is the structure good or could there be a better way to arrange things? Does KBS #1 have such significance, or is it just concidental as to how it's treated throughout the greater curriculum? Could the curriculum be better distilled down instead of repeating techniques later on? Perhaps instead of teaching "step here, do this" to teach as more generalized concepts could be useful, and if so how would you conceptualize the concepts that Kuk Sool's tech sets try to teach? In terms of approach to teaching, some say the techs are set up to teach actual body movements for you to memorize and regurgitate so when "in a fight" your body will naturally just do as it's been trained... but some also say the sets are abstract to teach concepts, mechanics, angles, and other points... some say it's both. Is there perhaps a different approach that could then be taken? Not to really bring up political stuff, but if there are you people that want to break off into a new org, that does allow you to do your own thing so are there ways you might want to change the curriculum? if so how and why and in what ways? If you do take that angle, please keep discussion geared towards discussion of technique and curriculum construction... we've got enough threads to discuss the org politics and such. And while I am only talking technique sets here, certainly there can be discussion of hyung, weapons, ki training, sparring, soo ki, johk sool, or any other aspect of the overall Kuk Sool curriculum.

    Just discussion. Like I said, I've been sitting idle with nothing to do but think, so all sorts of things are swirling in my head. I thought I'd throw a general question out there and just see where discussion might lead.
     
  2. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Speaking personally, I believe that most (if not all) locks, holds, throws and takedowns are complimentary to strikes. With that being the case - for me at least - I cannot really see 99.99% of people (including practitioners of Kuk Sool) being able to pull Ki Bon Soo No. 1 off in a Bar or street fight. If you don't believe that statement, I suggest that you go visit a few rough bars, or walk the streets of Manchester or Coventry (or some equally tough City) in the early hours, and watch a few bust-ups. Don't get involved, but simply ask yourself truthfully when you might have been able to use KBS1 had you been one of the protagonists.
     
  3. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I agree with Pugil. KBS #1 is not a very easy technique to "pull out of your hat." And despite the message delivered in umpteen Steven Seagal movies, KBS #5 is also not a good candidate IMO. And even though MMA proponents have said it won't work in a "real fight" I tend to look at KBS #6 as a viable way to "end it quickly" (I, of course, include all the variations of this technique, which IMO would allow for all of the "chicken wing" techniques to be clumped into this category).

    Yes, I've heard the "teach Kwan Juhl Ki early" battle cry before, but IMO that isn't really feasible unless you can arrange for a good student-to-teacher ratio (no more than 3 to 1). Otherwise, saving it until students have a better grasp of body mechanics makes much more sense.

    I also disagree that KBB #1 is anything like KBS #1 WRT the joint-lock itself (the stepping IS similar, however). The former ROTATES every joint in the arm (wrist, elbow, shoulder) in order to disrupt your balance and the latter uses distinct locks for each of these joints (one of the reasons it is so difficult to execute properly). FWIW, most beginners do not engage all of the locks that are present in KBS #1, but engaging only one, or possibly two, of the joint-locks can still bring down an opponent if enough speed and strength is also employed.

    As far as rearranging the curriculum is concerned, I have seen OTHER ways of doing it, but the bottom line is that a person still needs to absorb a great deal of all the VARIATIONS involved before they can envision the "big picture" WRT theory & concepts surrounding joint-locks, pressure-point attacks, and blending the grappling vs. striking approach to self-defense (what one needs in order to TEACH this stuff to others, IMO).

    Then it becomes a CHOICE, whether to teach others using the same methods that were used to teach yourself, OR to spend an inordinate amount of time figuring out another method which can EFFECTIVELY transmit this knowledge and coax the necessary skills needed to perform adequately. It just seems like a lot of trouble if you ask me, sorta like trying to reinvent the wheel. :bang:



    A refreshing idea, though, coc716. I'd much rather discuss techniques and the surrounding theory involved than politics. :cool:
     
  4. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i often wonder why the order of techs in the curriculum are taught the way they are. they seem to build on one another, but i wonder if ordering the sets differently would help students understand the techniques better. say saving maek chigi till one learns ji ap sul.
    we have a vast amount of techniques, but using what we know about reflexes, physics, resistance, punches that retract, even modern methods of motor learning, could help one try and make a more efficient system. like kjn said though, its almost not worth the headache of reinventing the wheel.
    but hey, samsung just took the lcd monitor and turned it into an led.
     
  5. kswking

    kswking Valued Member

    I have always thought that the hyung in KSW are nicely organized and each is a natural progression on the one before. techniques however IMO are not so well balanced.

    at DBN you have a boat load of techniques to learn and often these can end up being rushed and not properly mastered until well into JKN level. then, the techniques learnt early on at JKN are repetitive and can easily be mixed up making them difficult to remember. surely the idea of a large curriculum is to make it as easy as possible to learn efficiently?

    on the other hand you learn Gum mu hyung at DBN then nothing until BPK hyung around 12 months (or more) later. I agree that BPK should only be learnt at black belt level but surely there is some way of better distributing the way the forms/techniques (especially at DBN) are dished out? would this better balance of distribution not serve to give the student more time to soak up what they are learning before moving on resulting in a higher standard overall?

    also a good friend of mine has always said that ki cho hyung and cho geup hyung should be switched. this would make sense as the student would develop balance and basic stepping moving forward in CGH before adding turns and jumps in KCH.
     
  6. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    You'd then have to switch their names too of course! ;)
     
  7. kswking

    kswking Valued Member

    of course. names aside i meant to add. :cool:
     
  8. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    I'm currently going through the DBN overload lol. I believe that you could distill the curriculum down a bit e.g combine ahp euh bohk soo 11 and 12. Less techniques would leave more time to consolidate your abilities through non-compliant training.
     
  9. KSW_123

    KSW_123 Valued Member

    Everyone learns differently, so I am not sure if there is a perfect way to order the techniques for a large population.

    I like to break down the techniques and look for principles, then I try to identify the common principles used in the various techniques. An example on KBS #1 is, don't walk into an incomplete lock.
    I recognize though that some people who are very good do not go through this same process. They internalize the techniques without, possibly, overthinking them.

    I happen to think that the technique sets are quite well organized. The way I look at it is they are trying to teach principles based on examples. This is good particular if you have a teacher who explains the principle and why this technique is different than a similar one that came before.


    The simple answer here, is to work on a few until you get really good at them and then pick another few. The others just commit enough time to memorize.

    I meet with one of my training partners once a week now. We do 5 techniques, 50 times on each side, with resistence.
     
  10. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Ah, yes. The "DBN overload" (what a great term! LOL).

    Well, forgive me if I reminisce...

    What is currently the brown belt level in KSW, used to be the red belt level (minus dae geup hyung, of course). Only three sets of techniques were included in the second phase of the DBN level (i.e. 1st geup), that being yang son mok su, ssang su, and dan do makki. This made for a more even distribution of the techniques within the geup ranks, as well as ensuring that a lot of review could be encountered while undergoing the battery of BB tests/gradings (FYI- one typically didn't start testing until reaching the last geup).

    Black belt testing was usually limited to only three tests, meaning that you only received 5 or 6 stripes prior to getting the coveted black belt, and only had to learn one set of techniques for each new BB test (per the arrangement I outlined in the preceding paragraph).

    Furthermore, there used to be a slightly different way of grouping the techniques, although most of the changes had already been compiled by the time IHS came to the USA. Ap eui bok su and dui eui bok su BOTH had only 20 techniques (there used to be a group of techniques defending against *bear-hugs* - some from behind, some from the front, some pinning the arms and some not, which were incorporated into DEBS, just not all of them). The head-locks you see today as the final techniques in dui eui bok su were the original "defensive" techniques taught in mok jo reu gi. Since Kuk Sa Nim insisted that there be FIVE techniques in mok jo reu gi (3 offensive & 2 defensive), some other choking techniques had to be contrived after the *missing* MJRG techniques showed up as part of DEBS in the first KSW textbook (authored by In Sun Seo). BTW, in that first textbook, MJRG only had 3 techniques, all on the offensive.

    That's why you always hear "old-timers" say that things were different back in their day, because THEY WERE. :rolleyes:
     
  11. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    great bit of info!

    on the subject of techniques, i wonder if using names for techniques is easier to remember than numbers. i understand that numbers are universal and can easily be referred to, but more and more i see students saying "son mok soo 8... open the gate" and such to remember techniques. in chin-na manuals names are given to techniques. even pressure points that are given meridians and assigned numbers have names (like 'so hae' mean 'little ocean'). could this be a better method?
     
  12. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Gene LeBell lists around sixty (60) chokes in his book 'Grappling World - The Encyclopedia of Finishing Holds', so that area would certainly seem to be lacking somewhat in the Kuk Sool syllabus. And whilst I accept that there are quite a few variations on a theme, the same could also be said for a lot of the joint locks contained in the Kuk Sool syllabus anyway.

    If you think about it, the Kuk Sool syllabus is also heavily weighted in favour of outside wrist grabs compared to inside wrist grabs (even if they are also simply variations on a theme). But why so few techniques and/or variations for inside wrist grabs? Dr Jwing - Ming Yang lists 19 counters to the inside wrist grab in his book 'Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na'. (Not that I've ever seen anyone in a bar or street confrontation go up and 'attack' another by grabbing their wrist anyway! Although I admit that I have seen a Husband try to dominate his wife by grabbing both wrists on more than one occasion.)

    Having said all that, I am reminded of something I posted back in August on one of these Forum threads: 'It's not about daily increase, but rather decrease - hacking away the inessentials', in order to streamline what you as an individual needs.' Most top competitors in martial arts fighting competition have a handful of techniques which they are able to do very well. In Judo, for example, some moves (or variations on a particular move) are named after the person who came up with it, or who won so many fights with it that it became his/her signature technique.

    In a street confrontation, the aggressor, often with little martial arts knowledge, may still beat a 'black belt' who has less understanding of the 'strategy of the street', and/or who has so many 'techniques' available to him/her that he fails to react instinctively to the situation due to him/her having a log-jam of choice.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2009
  13. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    "In a street confrontation, the aggressor, often with little martial arts knowledge, may still beat a 'black belt' who has less understanding of the 'strategy of the street', and/or who has so many 'techniques' available to him/her that he fails to react instinctively to the situation due to him/her having a log-jam of choice."

    I believe I've heard this referred to as paralysis by analysis before, perhaps by yourself pugil, I can't remember.

    Also worth noting is if 'the black belt' dedicates a large portion of his training to techniques involving fine motor control as opposed to gross motor movements, then under adrenal stress there is a reduction in the ability to perform fine movements. I read an interesting journal on this a while ago, maybe see if I can link it.
     
  14. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

  15. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    No, although I have seen that site before. I'll have a look for it later on.
     
  16. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    One of the reasons this book is so good is because it's so comprehensive. It's one of my favorites by Jwing-Ming.

    The beauty of making this technique happen, IMHO, is that you've got to anticipate the puch coming from the other hand. When you duck and back step it puts some serious torque on.

    I personally think there are too many techniques to memorize in the KSW curriculum. It's great that practicing the techniques ingrains the muscle memory needed to use them in a confrontation, but it takes a long time and a lot of practice to be able to improvise lockflows and throws against a resisting opponent using the techniques as they are presented in this art. There's just too much to process.
     
  17. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    sadly, there are six whole sets (that i know of) that are no longer even shown in the WKSA syllabus. techniques that would make us far better fighters.
    grappling, counter kicking, sword defense, short staff techniques, and a whole mess of techniques that aren't shown at various sets anymore. if you have an instructor who still teaches the old ways, you might "get lucky" and learn it. kinda sucks, to be honest.
     
  18. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I didn't mean to say that KBS #5 is ineffective, as it CAN be made to work. And there are certainly situations that would sift it higher up on my list of maneuvers to do as a counter to a punch. But IMO where this technique shines is in response to a lapel grab, like EBS #8, for example.


    I also find it odd, JSun, that you applaud a book for being so comprehensive WRT joint-locks and then turn around and complain that there are TOO MANY techniques to memorize in KSW. Besides providing the obvious mental challenge, realize that memorizing the techniques in a certain pattern or order is just a way for everybody to initially learn the material as well as to provide a "measuring stick" for rank advancement.

    I always like to compare the numbering and order of the sets of techniques in KSW to the joke about the comedian's convention: They ascribed numbers to all of the jokes for the sake of brevity. So one guy yells out "#42" and they all laugh. Then another guy yells out "#201" and again, chuckles are heard throughout the convention hall. But when a third guy yells out "#118" there is dead silence. A guy sitting at the same table as this third fellow says, "I guess some people can tell a joke and some can't."

    It's been mentioned plenty of times that a good portion of the techniques are not different, just visited within the bounds of the particular set. So KBS #6, SMS #1, EBS #2, #5, & #6, ASMS #4, JMMKBS #6, etc., are not really different techniques, as they all have one hand supporting the wrist of your opponent while the other is placed in such a way as to overextend the elbow. But one set has you execute the technique as a simple maneuver, one defends against an outer wrist grab, one defends against an inner wrist grab, three are included in a set defending against clothing grabs, and another is defending against a punch. The mechanics involved in of all these joint-locks is ultimately the same, so aside from a little memorization (and isn't that what you do/did in school?), I don't see how learning the curriculum could be called "difficult."

    Besides, memorization isn't such a bad thing, as that's what's involved in figuring out a video game, isn't it? And we all know how much the "video game phenomenon" has entrenched itself in modern society, since you'll be considered lame if your cell phone doesn't come equipped with at least a few of these ATROCIOUS *wasters of time* (sorry for going slightly off-topic here, just needed to rant & rave a bit).

    Bottom line: I agree that there is probably a better way to present the material, especially if your focus is more in tune with MMA, but like I said before, not too many instructors are compelled to reinvent the wheel.
     
  19. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    there ARE a bunch of techniques, maybe too much. but even if we forget the number or we get beat up for overanalyzing a confrontation, that is all on us. we are supposedly being taught an encyclopedia of post korean war/pre-vietnam martial knowledge, and it is ultimately up to us to choose what works and what doesn't. would i ever x-block? i (and a few of my ribs) learned early on not to.
    as a psych nurse i have used number 5 to stop an attacker.......but it was only after i too ki 6'd the poor guy. if there was enough space in the room i could have too ki 13'd him, there was no space ( and im not in my profession to hurt people ). i dont think of sets and numbers when i am managing assaultive behavior, i simply react to openings and momentum.
     
  20. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    kwan jang nim, maybe if all the sets had 20 techs (lets just say) the numbers could all match! asside from the eue bok soo sets' progression up the arm and down to the belt, all number 5's could match up.
     

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