Side Kick to the Knee

Discussion in 'MMA' started by Pretty In Pink, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    But no more than anything else that went too far in MMA.
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member could be talking about a dozen legal techniques here. Kicks to the head, punches to the head, knees to the head, elbows to the head. No one is talking about banning those.
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    BIL JEE!!!
  4. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Exactly my thoughts.
  5. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Trained it on Sunday and am doing so again tonight.

    Knife and safety goggles at the ready.
  6. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Dammit man! Biu jee is the form!
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Would the removal of joint strikes change the entire dynamic though?

    Or to switch it around, should soccer kicks and stamps to a grounded opponant be legal again? as there removal has changed the grappling dynamic.
  8. wonglongwingchu

    wonglongwingchu Valued Member

    It just sucks when it can ruin your career. But still its a great kick.
  9. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    The jaw is a joint. Should we ban those too?

    Ban things if they are dangerous, but the oblique kick is less dangerous than many other techniques that you would never consider banning. Regular leg kicks work against the knee and hip joints - we going to ban them too?
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    There's very few fighters using them, and at least one major injury from them.

    Id like to look at the actual stats before resorting to incorrect comparisons though.

    We don't want to end up like judo do we...... ;)
  11. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    The only techniques judo banned for safety reasons are unquestionably unsafe. The rest were banned for sporting reasons, which is the real driving force behind the anti-oblique kick campaign.

    Strikes to the head routinely leave people with concussions and occasionally much more serious TBIs. They are on a different level to knee injuries.
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yes, the soles of shoes have an even greater effect on how much power you can use than gloves do for hands.

    I've broken up firewood much thicker and denser than bone with these kicks a lot with shoes on, but I wouldn't want to do it barefoot.

    Not that breaking wood is directly comparable to breaking a leg, as the fact you brace wood to break it changes the dynamics a lot. The danger from kicks to the knee comes when the majority of a person's weight is on it, particularly when you don't allow them to shift that weight. The angle at which you strike it changes the effect too.

    All the examples of kicks to the knees (or thereabouts) I've seen in the UFC have been used more like a teep - to create distance and break rhythm rather than really trying to damage the leg.
  13. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    Iirc the last time knee kicks were brought up, my take was (and continues to be) that I'm pretty sure it's pretty much impossible to damage a bent knee from the front with it (and aside from somewhat reducing forwards momentum, when you see people like Jones using them straight-on, the effect seems to mostly be negligible physical-damage-wise, in contrast to its extreme effectiveness for distance control), and more or less the same from the inside (which I attribute in part to the natural valgus of the human knee), with injuries like Torres' happening when the knee is pushed far further into valgus than is sustainable (Torres advanced and turned into a lead punch as his opponent threw the oblique kick, and it caught his knee side on at close range; Safe For Work screenshot of the instant just before the hit here:

    In contrast to the way one generally sees these kicks done in sparring, though (perhaps not too dissimilar to some of the ways jabs can be used? and I'll be damned if they're not seriously effective in this capacity as well), many examples of low line side and oblique kicks in TMA that I've seen tend to involve some close quarters grapply work before and/or during the kick, which itself can be knee or ankle height, and interpretation/application-wise can be a snap or thrust kick to the knee or thigh, or even to the hip or abdomen, but just as often, if not more so, will also be done as a trip (oblique kick ex: pull upper body one way, kick ankle the other way ala Judo Kosoto-Gari, De-Ashi Harai, or similar; common Kung Fu move, occasional interpretation of Karate/KF inward crescent kick to opposite hand), or as a "stomping kick" or similar (side kick ex: hold on to/pull on upper body, step on knee, "fall" on it with your full bodyweight; common in karate forms both as knee-height side thrust kick and as floor stomp similar to side kick motion; going off the above Judo comparison, think perhaps an O Soto Gari, or O Soto Guruma but kicking the knee rather than reaping).

    Personally, I think expecting knee damage to happen from side or oblique kicks outside of three very specific situations (hitting a locked out knee from the front or outside; catching it side-on just right to exacerbate the valgus; driving it forcefully into the ground) is unrealistic, but those situations can and have occurred, even accidentally, as in Torres' case when he literally turned his leg into the path of the other dude's oblique kick and took it side-on.

  14. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    One thing that stands out to me is that other fighters don't get the same level (if any) of condemnation for using those same kicks. I have barely ever heard a criticism of Holly Holm for doing the same thing. Yet people criticize Jon Jones a lot for using it. Same thing with Waterson. Edit- come to think of it, hasn't McGregor used them too?

    There are a lot of IMO valid criticisms to level at Jones, but this one - not so much.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Personally I don't like seeing anyone use them.
    Especially in the third or final rounds when a fighter has already beaten someone and there's no longer a need to slow the other person down.
    The difference with Jones is that he's clearly shown he has no regard for anyone's safety or welfare but his own.
    I think the other fighters you mention would be genuinely saddened if they did a "Miguel Torres" on someone's knee even though they use oblique and side kicks to the knee in fights.
    We know that Jones would just "meh" and probably even smile if he'd done it.
  16. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Actually it's Waters on that made me start this thread. A few people where like "I was rooting for her, untiluntil he threw that kick."
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Quite honestly MMA needs to decrease injuries to knees not encourage a move that makes them more likely.
    Someone pulls out of a fight with a bad knee on almost every UFC card it seems.
    It is a game at the end of the day.
  18. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    But how many of those people were injured by this kick? One in the history of the UFC? Two if you count Rampage's claim?
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  19. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    I am in agreement with this post. It is a sport and regulations should be in place to protect fighters from serious injury that can ruin their career or even their lives.
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    No idea on the injury rates. But given there's only about 5-6 fighters regularly using the oblique or low line side kick it's not going to be a big one for injuries until it's as widespread as jab/crosses and low roundkicks (something pretty much every fighter uses).

    I'd rather not wait on a Miguel Torres moment happens in a major UFC before people stop using direct linear kicks into the knee joint.

    But honestly I'm not that's a legit clearly works although it's not widely used. I'd rather not see it in a combat sport but that's just me.

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