To be fair though Banpen you have to admit that practically everyone claims that their arts actually do include grappling these days. I can't speak directly about your training but the vast majority of Bujinkan grappling demonstrated online is not impressive. Also, in regards being well regarded as far as grappling goes I have to express some scepticism on this front. I'm involved with two grappling styles and as such I would say I'm quite familiar with which arts have a good reputation amongst the grappling community. I'm not aware of any Ninjutsu style that fits that bill. I am aware of many Ninjutsu practitioners who claim that their style has good grappling and I've met a few practitioners with pretty good grappling... but an overall well regarded style? I have to ask how you arrive at that conclusion? Is it because people you train with who are grapplers regard you as competent? Let's set aside the issue of self defence scenarios for a minute since that's a whole other can of worms. The issue is how well founded your critiques of BJJ are and whether you have the experience to make such critiques. I am more than happy to admit that BJJ has it's flaws however the danger of small joint manipulation is not one I would regard as particularly large. Against an advanced practitioner it would also be an exceptionally bad idea. As far as your experience I honestly don't believe that what you have described is enough to have a very good idea about ground fighting. I'm at almost 2 years of BJJ training and I also train in Judo and I'm definitely still a beginner in ground fighting and I can quite clearly see that many of the issues I used to believe existed with techniques actually have gone away the more I've improved and I'm only a blue belt. Honestly, I don't think sparring with friends is enough to give you a particularly informed opinion. Let's be clear though Banpen. Most people who don't have official records are not Kimbo Slice. Also, Kimbo Slice has proven to be a poor to average competitor when fighting in MMA. This all sounds good but it really depends on the guys you are training with. A BJJ guy with one year is usually still a white belt and it really depends on the guy as to who much they know at that stage. On top of this that is 1 guy, speaking just for myself I usually spar with somewhere between 10-20 good grapplers a week and train with much more than this that and I wouldn't consider myself very good. Judo players also are really variable on ground fighting ability, since judo competitions place strict limits on ground fighting and wrestlers while being great at positioning and dominant position grappling also are occasionally lacking in the submissions area attacking and defending. Inevitably it depends on the guys but 3 guys none of whom seem to be particularly experienced ground grapplers are not really a large sample to work from. Sorry Banpen- just my take on it.
I have no problem with this. Im too poor to pay for ANY type of training at the moment (hence why Im boxing with my friend and his brother). Add to the fact that Im not trying to be the best grappler in the world and Im perfectly fine with my ability. Like I said, what I know has kept me safe in the past fights against people who tried to grapple with me. Probably. I lose quite a bit though, as the people I spar with all do their own thing (for instance, the judo guy just took up kickboxing and the highschool wrestler took up muay thai) while I have my own unique flair and its fun to mix it up and see what works. Possibly. Ive broken my hand in two places on someones head and didnt realize it until about 15 minutes later. But small joint manipulations, eye gauges, and nutshots aren't pain compliance techniques, in my opinion. Eye strikes effect vision, small joints are useful for leverage and effecting peoples ability to make fists, strike as hard as they normally do etc. In fact, grabbing a couple fingers is the easiest way to escape a lock that is otherwise too difficult to get out of. If you go by your logic, and ignore that breaking or pulling on some fingers hurts, then it still is an incredibly efficient way to break someones grip (even if they arent gripping you with their fingers themselves). As far as nutshots goes... Ok, maybe that is a pain compliance technique. But none of these things have EVER been an end to a fight. Why you and others insist on saying that people believe this is beyond me... Its a means to an end. Just like the jabs to the stomach before a cross to the chin. The modern era in steelmaking began with the introduction of Henry Bessemer's Bessemer process in 1858. This enabled steel to be produced in large quantities cheaply, so that mild steel is now used for most purposes for which wrought iron was formerly used. This was only the first of a number of methods of steel production. The Gilchrist-Thomas process (or basic Bessemer process) was an improvement to the Bessemer process, lining the converter with a basic material to remove phosphorus. Another was the Siemens-Martin process of open hearth steelmaking, which like the Gilchrist-Thomas process complemented, rather than replaced, the original Bessemer process. Oh... sorry. I thought we were just talking about random facts that have nothing to do with the conversation. My bad.
30 years ago just a little Karate was enough to beat most people because they were clueless against the kicks. Like it or not there are ever increasing people training in grappling and not all of them are what I would call nice people. Good, IMO its good to be comfortable with losing when you are training as ego gets in the way otherwise. Its also good to know your limitations. Do you think its possible that all those endless 2 person katas where the person attacks and you defend successfully may set up you up to have exaggerated opinion of your real world ability. All these at most are a means to an end. But if you dont have tested ability to get to the end they are pretty much useless. I am going to assume and perhaps you didnt follow. I was trying to make a point as regards the fighting arts. Most martial arts including all the ones i recieved Dan rankings in used point sparring. It did help us get used to taking hard shots and tolerate them but we didnt learn to weather the storm of blows and still respond. A ref would break the fight after the first solid blow. So you had time and space to recover. From a defensive standpoint you dont learn to absorb punches very well. Secondly from an offensive standpoint you having boxed would know that usually the first "landed" blow was the beginning to getting the knock out and not the end. If in sparring every time you land a solid blow you are stopped and restarted then you dont learn to follow up on yours blows.
I only trained in the Bujinkan for a year or so. Jinenkan Yasuragi Dojo DVD Volume IV, Kobudo, Ninjutsu, Ninpo, Jujutsu, Jujitsu, Bujinkan, karate, martial arts Jinenkan Yasuragi Dojo DVD Volume II, Kobudo, Ninjutsu, Ninpo, Jujutsu, Jujitsu, Bujinkan, karate, martial arts [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO-8Q6hSufw"]YouTube - 玄æ*¦é¤¨ Shinden Fudoryu Tanemura-Ha Taikai in UK[/ame] Well, I agree that ninjutsu in general is regarded as crap. Im not doubting that at all. I meant that Kukishinden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu are two well-known and well-respected ryu in Japan (ie: Not like Togakure Ryu) If we are talking specifically about small joints: I know they dont work all the time. I know they aren't something to RELY on. And actually... the very first time fingerlocks were mentioned was when I used it in jest and said that I'd use them to surprise a BJJer. Do you really think that when I ground fight I just roll around trying to grab balls, poke eyes, and yank on fingers? That sounds like a 12 year old wrestling his older brother.... Thanks for bringing up that point. Someone who smashes faces in during a street altercation doesnt do well in a ring. Explanation: The ring is full of highly advanced, specialized fighters (read: unrealistic). They are good, great, spectacular athletes and should be regarded as so. BUT, they shouldnt be the "control" for self-defense "experimentation". When Im training, Im not training to fight against an "average Joe" (though that is more than likely to be someone who I go up against) and Im also not training to beat a champion. There is always going to be someone better than me, obviously, so I train to hold my ground, protect myself, and escape. Something that can be done regardless of how talented, strong, fast, or skillful my opponent is. Not offended... Like I said, I know this and I havent ever claimed to be amazing on the ground... I practice basics, I practice takedown defense, and I practice getting back up if I happen to be taken down. Thats all I want to do. Some people might think of this as setting the bar too low, but I have such a large arsenal of things at my disposal to train in, like weapons, strength training, boxing skills, MT skills, conditioning, balance/stand up grappling work, roadwork etc that I cant afford to spend too much time on any one thing. Some people believe that specializing in one or two aspects of fighting is right for them, I like to have my fingers in many different parts of the pie. Afterall, at the end of the day, I am training for self-defense and to fight, yes, but also, its just a hobby. I mountain bike, rock climb, swim, kayak and goto college full time and have a part time job. I dont want to be as good as a Gracie, I dont have enough time or money to put in. I dont want to create the image that Im half-assing training or that I dont take my martial arts seriously. I do, its def the highest priority in my life. All Im trying to say is that Im training for my own personal well-being, strength, agility, speed, and self-defense in a real life encounter, not training to be a champion. Which is why earlier I said that having an official fight record has nothing to do with how competent of a fighter you are.
No... I dont think so. If I only did the textbook kata over and over again, then maybe. But as you know (or SHOULD know at least) the progression from textbook to randori within the confines of the kata can show you just how sucky you really are. Yup... Which is where a lot of people who are hating on ninpo go wrong. Yes, half or more of us suck, wont deny that. But when/if we talk about stupid things like eye gauges and crap, its not because its all we know how to do, its because they work well in relation to the other things we know, such as balance, timing, positioning, and techniques. At least I hope thats true... Ive never actually hung out with any ninpo people outside of my own circle. I mean.............. I follow what you're saying.. but I just dont see how it relates to me. Ive never point sparred in my whole life, including my TKD days.
Ooooo, another one: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uOSTh8u74s"]YouTube - Yasuragi DojoTaijutsu Fundamentals DVD VOL 3 Kumite[/ame]
I'll get to your other points when I have time to read properly but in regards Kimbo you need to bear in mind his fights generally seem to have had MORE limiting rules than a MMA fight. He fought without gloves sure but his fights all seem to have been consensual 1 v 1 boxing matches with big but generally out of shape guys. The one time he fought someone semi-proficient at grappling he stipulated before the start that no ground submissions or chokes were allowed and he was eventually 'tapped out' by a standing guillotine choke, if I recall correctly. As such I really don't get why you would regard his 1 v 1 consensual boxing bouts to be more realistic than say a consensual 1 v 1 MMA fight that permits standup and ground fighting. Why is 1 unrealistic and the other not?
I was just throwing his name out there since it was the first person that came to mind. My point was just that a good street fighter can potentially suck the big one in a ring...
Cheers Callsignfuzzy, thanks for actually addressing my points. 1. The question isn't about how famous the gracies were, the gracies still were incredible martial artists. This is one of the reasons I tend to dislike UFC fans attitudes, whoever's more famous OBVIOUSLY is the best fighter. 2. I'll look it up for you, it shouldn't be too hard it was online article and the flying armbar, I was thinking the exact same thing why the hell would anyone want to do a flying arm-bar, in a cramped bar also!?!? As for Bjj or practitioner, the policeman who knocked himself out studied BJJ, the article never went into how extensvely, my intuition tells me that he can't of been that much to seriously consider a flying armbar. 3. Would you be able to get me a copy of the "Old" rules, this has intrigued me, I had no idea so much was legal, and knew their were no gloves, but spinal locks that means you can kill someone in the ring np, groin shots, make em sterile, that seems like alot of risk for the time it was invented. I am skeptikal that so much was allowed, obviously little happened in the above cases, but the possibilitys of it wold have governments up in arms, not about the violence being promoted (which they were), but about the potential of death or permanent maiming involved. And I have to doubt any real blows are given with much force or direction to the back of the head, those kind of strikes can cuase K.O.'s np, and with those fighters who dedicate so much time to fitness level, I'd say a kill isn't that much of a stretch. Now I know that good clean whack to the kidneys for example can take you right out, about a year ago playing american football, during a spin manuever on a R.T. I took a hit to the kidneys, I was out.... ....for the whole game. I'm pretty certain strikes intended to cause an "instant injury" would be classed as unsportsmanly-like conduct. As for groin stirkes, again I doubt these are full force groin strikes, or at least fighters are wearing a cup, becuase you get hit their hard, well put it this way, a decent hit to the nads, can put you through enough pain to make you vomit. And the guard, I'll check with my instructor, ebecuase whenever I get my gaurd on or indeed someone else does, I always notice it.... 4. It probably depends on which clinch is being executed, in the mean-time I usually have decent mobility on my arms as far as moving them is concered, obviously stricking is a different mattter. 5. I admitt that rule last time I checked seemed hazy at the least, and antitheitical to the nature of MMA. 6. My point remains the same, although the grapplers tended not to have extensive training in striking, they knew what was coming, in the didn't strikers, they were thinking, "he'll try and trip me up, so I'll just keep my balance and punch him" Anyway current posts by bjj fanboys have proved the O.P's point. They'e acted like your average arrogant teen, (the notable part is that arrogance is generally fostered by insecurity) Someone has said "Some BJJ guys should cool it, their getting a superiority complex" The responce has been. "OMG BJJ IS AWESUMM DON'T DIISSS IT, COME JOIN TEH UFC!!" The O.P. hasn't challenged BJJ's ability in the slightest, but the responce is a wave of ranting and raving about BJJ's effectiveness. It says something about them when they can't have a debate about a possible flaw in their art without getting all WWE trash talk about the subject.
''As for groin stirkes, again I doubt these are full force groin strikes, or at least fighters are wearing a cup, becuase you get hit their hard, well put it this way, a decent hit to the nads, can put you through enough pain to make you vomit.'' [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Mva-3n7TY"]YouTube - UFC 4 Legal Groin Shots![/ame]
He got three punches to the dick, with barely 50% force. Now I am suprised that, that was legal, but the force and area that was actually hit, I'm not surprised that his adrenaline pulled him through the immediate pain. I'm not advocating groin shots as a 100% winner, I've been hit in the groin and continued fighting, admittedly I stopped not long after and I was sick.
Its interesting how hard it was for keith hackney to get a clear shot in, however with the size of his arms its also amazing it took so many for joeson to tap. edit, the groin strikes didnt end the fight, it was a claw grab/choke to the trachae which enduced the tap. In self protection the groin is a legitamate if overstated target, there is still the need to get into and maintain the correct position howevever.
not the rule set but a overview of the rule changes here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Fighting_Championship Emergence of more rules Although "There are no rules!" was the tagline in the early 1990s, this was not strictly true; the UFC operated with limited rules. There was no biting, no eye gouging, and techniques such as hair pulling, headbutting, groin strikes and fish-hooking were frowned upon, but allowed In response to the criticism, the UFC increased its cooperation with state athletic commissions and redesigned its rules to remove the less palatable elements of fights while retaining the core elements of striking and grappling. UFC 12 saw the introduction of weight-classes. From UFC 14 gloves became mandatory and kicks to a downed opponent, hair pulling, fish hooking, headbutting, and groin strikes were banned. UFC 15 saw more limitations on permissible striking areas: strikes to the back of the neck and head, and small joint manipulations were banned. and pride FC rules here: notice stamping on a face up oppoant is legal: example of technique here: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMNEiko7oPs"]YouTube - Shogun´s Seminar in Washington (04/25/2008) - Part 1[/ame] http://www.pridefc.com/pride2005/whats_rules.htm The following acts are regarded as "illegal actions." When a fighter commits any of these illegal actions, he will be given a warning from the referee (in the form of a yellow card). Warnings will be considered as negative points in the event that the match goes to a decision. Three warnings will result in a disqualification. No head butting, eye gouging, hair pulling, biting or fish hooking. No attacking the groin No strikes (kicks, elbows, punching) to the back of the head (which includes the occipital region and the spine). The sides of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head. No small joint manipulation (control of four or more fingers/toes is necessary). No elbow strikes to the head and face. No intentionally throwing your opponent out of the ring. No running out of the ring. No purposely holding the ropes. Fighters cannot purposely hang an arm or leg on the ropes. Hanging on the ropes will result in an immediate warning. No kicks or knees to the head or the face of an opponent who falls face down. No application of oil, ointment, spray, Vaseline, massaging cream, hair cream, or any other substances is permitted to any part of the fighter's body before and during the fights. The discovery of any of these substances will result in a disqualification.
not the rule set but a overview of the rule changes here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Fighting_Championship Emergence of more rules Although "There are no rules!" was the tagline in the early 1990s, this was not strictly true; the UFC operated with limited rules. There was no biting, no eye gouging, and techniques such as hair pulling, headbutting, groin strikes and fish-hooking were frowned upon, but allowed In response to the criticism, the UFC increased its cooperation with state athletic commissions and redesigned its rules to remove the less palatable elements of fights while retaining the core elements of striking and grappling. UFC 12 saw the introduction of weight-classes. From UFC 14 gloves became mandatory and kicks to a downed opponent, hair pulling, fish hooking, headbutting, and groin strikes were banned. UFC 15 saw more limitations on permissible striking areas: strikes to the back of the neck and head, and small joint manipulations were banned. and pride FC rules here: notice stamping on a face up opponant is legal: example of technique here: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMNEiko7oPs"]YouTube - Shogun´s Seminar in Washington (04/25/2008) - Part 1[/ame] http://www.pridefc.com/pride2005/whats_rules.htm The following acts are regarded as "illegal actions." When a fighter commits any of these illegal actions, he will be given a warning from the referee (in the form of a yellow card). Warnings will be considered as negative points in the event that the match goes to a decision. Three warnings will result in a disqualification. No head butting, eye gouging, hair pulling, biting or fish hooking. No attacking the groin No strikes (kicks, elbows, punching) to the back of the head (which includes the occipital region and the spine). The sides of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head. No small joint manipulation (control of four or more fingers/toes is necessary). No elbow strikes to the head and face. No intentionally throwing your opponent out of the ring. No running out of the ring. No purposely holding the ropes. Fighters cannot purposely hang an arm or leg on the ropes. Hanging on the ropes will result in an immediate warning. No kicks or knees to the head or the face of an opponent who falls face down. No application of oil, ointment, spray, Vaseline, massaging cream, hair cream, or any other substances is permitted to any part of the fighter's body before and during the fights. The discovery of any of these substances will result in a disqualification.
Sorry, didn't see 'em. That's what I get for not reading the whole thread. Would you care to elaborate on the points in red? My experience is that unless the guy has a very, very poor guard, there isn't nearly the separation you'd need to get off any significant shots. And I'm at a loss to imagine the other positions you're refering to.
''the ole grab-and-twist rather than strikes...'' Isnt a fight ender, but can be used to make space, unfortunatly doing that both exposes your face to strikes, but also (from guard or from mount) exposes you to a triangle choke, and from knee on belly again exposes you to strikes and armbars. pain complience is fine, but you have to have the movement skils to back that up with reversals and escapes.
