Has anyone else heard of Shu Ha Ri? It pertains to the thinking behind the art I am learning. It is process of how we learn and then learn to relate to our environment and ultimately spontaneaity. quick definition of environment. - The immediate area around you that can possibly interact with you. Look around your environment. Everything there is unique to that instant. This includes people, objects, everything. First let me ask a simple question. When do you stop concentrating on learning techniques? Is there a point where you realise that after there all you will learn will be variations and combintaions? Because you could spend eternity learning different techniques and still have an eternity of eternities of learing before you could learn them all. Essentially my point is this - you cannot learn every single technique possible. Why do you learn a technique? to relate it to a situation or environment (a better term I think). You learn this punch which will work under these conditions. But how many environments will this technique relate to? 1?, 2?, 46?, 347? We don't know. How many different environments are there? it is limitless. There are an infinite number of different environments (situations or scenarios). Why then do try to learn 5 billion techniques to try to cover them all? At best trying this you could learn enough techniques that something will roughly relate to the current environment and thu you will perform this. Why not just learn a few basic principles that can be changed to suit the environment? Where would you draw the line at these basics? Here we enter the Shu journey. You are always on the Shu journey but it changes emphasis later on. Where you learn many techniques. These techniques are not the be all and end all of techniques. They are meant to be a platform if you will to launch your mind from when you are required to respond to an environment. It is here that you will become proficient with your body, come to understand it and realise what will work and what won't. We train all apsects of the body and mind to be at what we think is the peak condition for us. You also begin a limited exploration of looking to your environment. The obvious one is your Dojo. Four walls and a roof. Everything inside it. All the people you train with. But it is a controlled environment where most of the factors are kind to us. You can only go so farand learn only a certain number of techniques before you realise that the possibilites are endless. So we begin to introduce the Ha journey. this is the letting go stage. You realise that although we have learnt a finite number of techniques that the body is dynamic and one kick is much like another. We begin to let go of the word technique and use the training of our body to allow us to flow. You begin to realise that you need to relate to your environment. Yes I can punch and yes it is a good punch but if I havn't realted it to the environment then I am merely waving my arm in the air. You experiment with your environment, change it, introduce different factors - multiple opponents, uneven ground, obstacles (again it is limitless). You let go of your techniques merely relate to the environment. Again a change in the journey. The Ri journey. Opening up. Spontenaeity. Mushin (I think I spelled it right - means no thought anyway). You have come to terms with your need to relate to the environment and that you merely need to respond accordingly. There is no right, wrong, good or bad. Merely different. The environment changes and so do you. but instead of executing a technique you merely flow with the environment, blending with it, not trying to control it to where you can do something. eventually with all your training you will be able to blend seemlessly with the environmet. What comes next? No-one knows for none have ever been. that is what I look towards and why I continue. The journey is not strict, rulebound or rigid. It too flows. You may learn 2 techniques before begining to let go of them or you may learn 2000. It does not matter. All you need to do is learn that which you need before begining to let go. The syllabuses we learn are rigid in that we need to be able to show the techniques required but we need not wait until we have reached a certain point before we may begin to let go and open up. For what good would it do to only know techniques that relate to a few environments? But learning those same techniques and then proceeding to relate them to a multitude of different environments is the goal and is encouraged. Today we had a "camp" where this was discussed and we did many excercises that helped our understanding of what was intented by the art. It has helped me immensly and sparked this post. Hopefully I will have some photos soon so that I can show you all. I hope that I have given you the sparks of many questions which you can ponder about and come to your understanding of what you seek. The most important thought ever thought by any entity is why?
Darzeka, I've enjoyed and gained much from your mental workouts. Yes, environment and circumstances are endless and I think the ultimate achievement in a martial artist's journey is to obtain Mushin- mind, no mind.
You talk about shu ha ri as if was important to training. Were did you get this info from? books? internet? What is you opinion on Shu Ha Ri? Should it belong here in dojo's? Do people believe in Shu Ha Ri? Is Shu Ha Ri dying across the world?
ah, many people talk about the mechanics of fighting. You are talking about the spirit. I have said this several times before, "Do not mistake the finger pointing to the ocean, as the ocean" (Bruce Lee). I believe there is too much focus on technique and not enough focus on the intangibles of a fight.
Hi, killbill Could you expalin in detail please, are you saying we should concerate more on the knowledge than the technique?
no, not at all, i'm just saying that you can train in techniqe all you want, but as anyone who gets in a real fight knows, there's also an intangible something to a fight besides just techniqe. Watching a fight you can see the difference, one person might do the techniqes flawlessly and still lose, you watch the other guy and he just flows, always seeming to block or hit at just the right moment, in tune with the "soul" of fighting. Havnt you ever felt this while sparring? Or is it just me? I know im not doing a very good job of describing this. I could compare it to other things, like if anyone here plays video games, there comes a point after you play a game for a while where you aren't thinking "Okay i have to press the left trigger now to throw a grenade" you aren't even thinking "grenade" at all, you just do it.
Technique is the foundation of your skill, it is very important; however it is still only one part of a whole. There are a number of building blocks used to construct your success when you are in the process of self defence. Lack of preparation in any of these will reduce your effectiveness. The translation of shu ha ri, is copy adapt breakaway, and is in common use throughout Japan in a number of activities, not just martial arts. It is a process of learning, and I think that different arts may have their own tilt on how it is applied. My personnel thoughts are there basically two ways of learning. One way is to use a process of skill development. Where the teacher develops the student’s skills in bite size chunks, therefore the student has a chance of absorbing before moving along to the next chunk and as they go the chunks begin to form something. The other way is the sink or swim method. This is like saying OK your have warmed up, you can punch and kick, get in the ring and have ago. This appeals to some people, but usually not the less skilled ones. Often they just get the crap beat out of them and think maybe the TV at home is not so bad after all. This method is less a developmental method but rather a culling method.
Good post. I prefer a hybrid of the two methods. Teaching skills in bitesized chunks but then giving the student the opportunity to test that chunk in almost a sink or swim environment (with a balance of reality & safety at it's core) before building on the skill. This is where their personal expression & attributes often highlight which chunk they need next.
Killbill: "Havnt you ever felt this while sparring? Or is it just me?" I have felt like this but not very often does the technique work! I may feel its automatic but I have to ask myself - if it can do the job?. If not i have to ask myself why doesn't the techniques work? And after that, if the techniques are ineffective I will try and get out of a habit of doing rubbish unfulfilled techniques. Its like building a tower; you have to start off with one brick and then add another brick. Trouble is when someone or something knocks off the bricks and you have to start again. That's how I see Shu Ha ri, as I go up though the levels its like starting from white belt again and again. Any one else feels the same or different? I must admit the teaching in bite size chunks and the swimming or sink method is a much easier way of explaining Shu Ha Ri, but it isn't my opinion on it.
Yoda, The bite size chunks should include realistic settings, but I believe the settings should still be within the student’s skill levels. This is not to say that they should not be challenging though, they should. The danger is if you make them too difficult they will convert to flight responses like moving backwards or some other less than ideal but instinctive response. By developing their randori in stages you can replace these responses with better ones. The end result is they can come away from the experience with something other than a re-enforced less than ideal natural reaction. greebo_1, I can only speak from my own experience, but from experience I have found that if I’m having problems using the technique it is usually because my taisabaki is wrong. This often will cause the body to be incorrectly positioned or balanced to apply the technique. It should also be noted that small changes in offence can change the defensive technique and unless you are applying the correct response it will feel awkward.
Quote:- greebo_1, I can only speak from my own experience, but from experience I have found that if I’m having problems using the technique it is usually because my taisabaki is wrong. This often will cause the body to be incorrectly positioned or balanced to apply the technique. It should also be noted that small changes in offence can change the defensive technique and unless you are applying the correct response it will feel awkward. Yes I do feel that when change happens it ruins my flowing movement. For example: when I do kumite I find that I’m more comfortable on doing right side attacks and blocks. When I do change legs I feel that the left arm and left leg doesn't belong to me, like you said it feels "awkward"! So the solution for this is to practice on my week side and not on my comfortable side?
Excellent post Darzeka. It's interesting how everthing becomes the same once you start to understand the process.
The same? if anything I find understanding of it will not give me a same process but a different process because I understand I move up to the next level and that gives a new understanding not the same understanding! Agree with me?
Mushin meas the real mind not no mind "the no mind is the pyschic hindrance that stops the flow of natural reflexes". Therefore techinique not based on the body natural reflex is merely "waving the arms in the air". This mushin show real understand what is thinking and real spontaneous reaction to the environment. No hindrance from the ego or logical rationalization, just reaction.
