Should techniques from a specific MA be deployed in fights from a completely different MA?

This is a question I've more of less posed on an Aikido thread, but I think it might merit its own discussion.

The background is I am a learner (about 2.5 years into learning Wado ryu karate as an adult). I only have MA experience of just this one MA method and indeed, relatively, little experience of this.

There are other folks at my Dojo with experience of other fighting techniques - boxing springs to mind.

Those with other, perhaps more extensive, fighting experience in other techniques tend to default to their own engrained methods when sparring. Thus a boxer tends to punch and guard as per their boxing technique.

Because this doesn't mimic the classic karate techniques I have been taught, I find it difficult to spar against them since they tend not to punch as a 'karate; person would punch and thus the karate blocks are harder to make effective as the punches are not in the 'expected' area. As I wrote in the other thread - yes, I get that in a real street situation you would deal with whatever was thrown at you and do the best you could before running. However, IMO a dojo is a 'practice session'. I have far fewer problems sparring with folks who just use karate techniques.

So, should people be allowed to deploy alternative fighting techniques in a Karate fight (or other MA techniques which don't match the MA session being participated in) and do their scores count if they have not been achieved through recognised techniques for the MA the session is for?

I hope that makes sense as a concept/question.

 

It depends why you're training.

If you are training Karate because you like training Karate for its own sake, then it's fine to only allow Karate techniques.

If you are training in the hope that it will help you defend against physical assault, then you should not limit techniques (outside of isolating techniques in specific sparring exercises). If someone is using techniques that give you a hard time in sparring, work with them to analyse why those techniques give you a hard time, and see if you can assimilate them into your own technical repertoire.

 

This really depends on what you want from Karate and how you define it.
There are boxing-ish techniques in Karate. Straight punches, multiple hook punches and uppercuts in kata. Many karate clubs incorporate boxing style padwork and techniques.

Quite honestly I think you're having trouble applying "karate blocks" in sparring because in many cases they aren't meant to be used in the way you're trying.

Personally I like a very open rule set for sparring (or at least different formats) so I'm not fussed where a technique comes from or gets used.

 

The only "limits" should be agreed upon upfront - kicks only, kicks and punches, just punches, no grappling, throws but not groundwork etc....

Only if you "surprise" someone with something not expected/allowed is a variation in nature of techniques an issue...and the instructor should handle that type of thing quickly to stop it escalating

 

It depends on what the class is focused on, mutually agreed safety rules and your own personal level,

As long as its not dangerous, its not really a bad thing to come across new techniques that cause you trouble, ask the people who are doing that, how it works, and what would they suggest to avoid/counter it, learnings always more fun when others are involved!

 

Yes, this^^^ is what it sometimes feels like. If I am expecting a karate (yakazuki, for example) punch to be launched from just above the waist area and land at my belt area - that I can counter with a gedan or chudan block, if the punch comes from a different direction (for example from a boxing perspective) the same block won't work. I am finding repeatedly that it is easier to spar with the more senior belt holders who limit their approach to what I'll call 'karate style' moves - to which I can try to counter with the methods I've learned, than it is to spar with people of similar or lower grades who have done some other form of fighting and who have a tendency to draw more on the methods they are familiar with when they are under pressure. I have been assuming that this is because I only know enough to counter pure 'karate' moves - should I develop some skills in dealing with other approaches. I therefore wondered do other people have a problem if they end up facing approaches that are not in the expected style? The comments above suggest not and that I need to broaden my skill set.

 

When I did karate and similar styles, the drills were often format in a way that the attack steps and punches, as well as the punch coming from the waist the block would work.
You can adapt this, and I found the kungfu style I did was easier to adapt as the block was taught "shorter" to deal with a standard boxing punch which is initiated without stepping through so you have less reaction time.
Spend some time drilling karate defence against "boxing" strikes to see what works best for you.

 

I think there's definitely times when you'll feel taken aback by another style's emphasis in sparring, one time it happened to me when I was practicing newaza with a judoka. Definitely a faster, more intense form of grappling. In this case though I didn't feel the need to alter my techniques or anything, but did have to adjust to the different pace and intensity. I definitely found the experience beneficial. Adjusting your technique is probably a good idea, I'd maybe have a talk with your teacher about the subject. How much do you focus on controlling the fight, and how much are you waiting for them, thinking "Ok, now I gotta do my down block."?

 

If students are deliberately going against instruction, then that is a safety issue and needs to be addressed immediately.

Have you talked to your instructor about it? I think you should.

If the techniques you are training only work when being fed specific strikes, and not so well against any outside of that, I would question the effectiveness of the techniques you are training. I would take the fact that you are finding it easier sparring higher grades who "play by the book" and not so well against lower grades with experience outside of your Karate school to be a bit of a potential red flag, if I'm being honest. But the benefit of the doubt should be given to your instructor(s) and you should talk to them about it.

Of course, it all depends on what your training goals are. If you enjoy your training and aren't so worried about having to use it for real, then don't worry about it!

 

I think one thing sports based martial arts do really well is teach you how to control the encounter and force your game plan on your opponent, it sounds like your school might be taking a more passive approach to countering?

 

I'll just second what pretty much every poster has already stated BUT I'll also add that instead of looking at it from a blocking perspective try looking at your footwork and distancing instead. Try to control the distance and create an angle to attack.

Ultimately people are going to attempt to hit you in whatever way they see fit. It seems to me that the strength of karate is in controling distance and then entering in a way that cuts through your opponent's intention. If you attempt to counter anyone who punches in combination (especially a boxer) with a rigid block then you'll swifty see that they simply do not work quite as advertised and never will IMO

 

As I guess I did when I started, and probably still do in comparison to a Black belt with 10 years+ experience!

I don't think my partners are deliberately doing non-karate moves, but I guess if someone has more experience with the 'movement' of different sport then that is what the body sub-consciously will adopt when an easy and effective option is needed. I'd sooner have the experienced brown and black belts as partners any day of the week - they will even stop in the sessions and try to show me things I can try or point out perhaps ways that I can change what I am doing for the best.

As you can see I still find sparring difficult and tend to think that I'll never be an effective fighter. Thus, I think I'll hit a 'glass ceiling' with karate at some point. In all the time I've been trying to spar I doubt I've ever won a 'genuine' point. All I seem to get is 'bopped' by all and sundry - OK, it doesn't hurt me (and you'd never catch me complaining even if it did), but I still groan if a sparring session is announced. I've developed skills in blocking and moving out of the way and try to survive bouts on these techniques alone. It's daft - I'm no petite lady - I could probably score points off of some opponents on the basis of sheer intimidation! I also know how to throw a fairly good set of punches these days, I just don't have enough technique to make them count and get close enough to throw them without letting the other person in first. With the best will in the world, constantly losing is demoralising at best. Even my son (same grade) tells me that I am easy to beat - if he gets partnered with me he reckons all he has to do is to wave his arms around wildly until I'm distracted enough to bop!- I much prefer basics and kata - I still find the routines difficult to learn, but I know with work I can sort them out The trouble is I don't know how much further I will get with karate unless I can get the sparring sorted.

 

sparring is always hard, that's why its valuable and one of the best forms of training.

 

I have long thought that one of the weaknesses of pretty much all mainstream martial arts is that you end up being very good at defending against people who attack in the style of that art. This only matters, of course, if self defence is a main reason why you train and for many of us it isn't.

Here is a very old TV comedy sketch that, although it was meant just to be humour, is actauly bang on the nai without meaning to be: Sketch

 

To be honest I think you're also hitting a point MANY people have hit when they learn a martial art.
Some techniques are better than others. The way some techniques have been taught and passed on is often very flawed. There are lots of flawed drills (looking at you step sparring!)
The way techniques and training methods are taught have become rigid and inneffective. Effectiveness and function have been sidelined in favour of aesthetics.
Many people have reached a similar point and either come to the conclusion that need to train harder, they'll never be good at martial arts or what they've been shown is rubbish and they move on to another art OR adapt or add to what they are already learning.

For what it's worth...Karate was never designed to be "karate v karate". Wado has a slightly different lineage than other forms of karate but essentially the roots of karate are a civilian self defence system. So designed to counter the aggression and type of attacks in that arena (if trained correctly I might add!).

If you are trying to apply traditional blocks (chamber and then deflect the incoming punch with the "block" motion as you pull the non blocking hand to your hip) then it's going to be an uphill struggle outside of anything other than very scripted rigid drills against long punches. Simply put, and in the opinion of many people, those techniques just weren't meant to be applied in that way (that method of training being a later addition).

If you are interested in applying karate outside of the normal karate rigidity then I can wholeheartedly recommend the work of Iain Abernethy. He's (was) a wado guy, encountered similar things to what you're describing and has become one of the go-to guys for practical, effective karate. He's been instrumental in changing my own relationship with traditional martial arts like karate and taekwondo.

 

Or look at these too......

Amazon.com: John Titchen: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle

 

Watching a few clips of Iain Abernathy I think gets to the difference of what I was inadequately articulating when I was saying that you need to enforce your gameplan on someone else:

You can see that he's compromising his opponent's structure and balance with the blocks, he's not waiting for a punch and simply receiving it. As in something like this: