Should Karate go back to its roots?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by kensai, Apr 16, 2003.

  1. kensai

    kensai New Member

    Its clear that it Itsou changed Karate at a time when it was indeed dying. Although alot of people dislike him for it, without it most of us would not have had the oppotunity to study the fanastic Ryukyu's arts.

    But at a time when people are so interested in self defence techniques, should Karate change back to the way it was in the 1800's?
     
  2. Killerbee

    Killerbee New Member

    karate back then was more like the modern day kyokushin kai karate. It would definately be better for it to return to its roots in my opinion but I dont know how the normal shotokan practitioner thinks about this.
     
  3. Saz

    Saz Nerd Admin

    Good thread Kensai :)

    I think a lot of it depends on how you view your training, whether you see it as an art or just another exersize. Personally, I like hard training, which is why I do this style. Kyokushinkai is pretty much geared towards Knockdown fighting these days. There's a good interview here about Hanshi Steve Arneil and his kyokushinkai training in Japan. Its a good read :)

    I'd love karate to go back to its roots some more, but I wouldn't like to see it go totally back. Some of the things they did in the old days of karate were just plain crazy. One reason I can see for karate dumbing down is money. Some people pay money to go to karate classes, and then don't like the fact that it's hard to do, or hurts a bit or they can't do the techiniques. Some clubs would have had to soften up just to survive. I think we've come a long way since the 1800's, and even more in the 20th century. A lot of dangerous exersizes and techinques have been filtered out, and its become a lot safer to practise than it has been in the past. Unfortunately, this has also made some styles/clubs go overboard on the safety issues and take out a lot of the stuff that made karate great, in an effort to be 'safer' and to appeal to as many people as possible.

    Thats just my opinion
     
  4. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    I sympathise with many of the kyokushin girl's points. Karate and roots, hmm... It would be better if karate's roots were more accessible and open to all. It would also be better if you could go into a karate club and walk out a few months later with some functional knowledge of fighting techniques, which does not happen. It's all too secretive.
     
  5. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -I think in many ways we can have the best of both worlds. The positive aspects of itosu's do for character and personal development, especially for the children. For the adults, however, the original combat art should be there as well. I feel too many people think these have to be seperate. I don't feel they are contradictory at all. I may be struck by lightning for this, but for once, I actually agree on a point by Errant. The constant hiding of technique, especially "the good stuff", is outdated. I realize that it takes time to both mentally grasp and physically be able to perform a lot of the more advanced material, but instructors should provide the students w/ the value of what they came to their school for. Give them functional self-defense(at least as much as they can digest), fitness(as much as they can handle), personal growth, ect. right from the start and you'll retain the students because they see real progress. THAT is the way to be financialy successful and grow your school and to provide value to your community.
     
  6. hongkongfuey

    hongkongfuey Kung Fu Geek

    It's not just Karate that this applies to, but all martial arts. Not many westerners have the dedication or time to practice a true traditional martial art.

    Cooler and myself went to a traditional kung fu instructor for a while and spent the first 3 months sitting in horse stance for most of the 1 hour class. Needless to say, the class was not full of students!

    In the end we left, as unless you practiced sitting in horse stance for several hours a week outside the class there was no way you could progress. However, the students that had remained at the class were some of the best martial artists I have come accross.

    I agree with Kyokushin_girl in that it all depends on what you want out of your art.
     
  7. Telsun

    Telsun Valued Member

    Whats all this about "secret techniques"? I have been training for a good many years and have never been shown any "secret techniques". The techniques evolve as you progress. Just as you can't go straight for algebra without learning to add up first.

    Going back to the roots. I love reading about tales from the karate (martial arts) legends. It all seemed so honourable. But I consider the routes being a fight to the death. Defeating an instructor to make him loose his students respect and thus become the new instructor, etc, etc. Forgive me if I am way of track here.
    Karate has become a bit soft as some instructors teach what the student wants. I think that training should be very hard but as Kyukoshingirl said the training has moved with the times to avoid injuries, which is good.
    If the soft/ Mcdojo clubs (of which there are many) were all erradicated and only the very best clubs and karateka remained to rebuild the legend that karate once was I would consider that a return to the roots.
     
  8. Adam

    Adam New Member

    Karate is softer because society is softer. Back when it was invented, attacks by robbers were more common than they are today, people starved more and there was more anarchy. Stability and peace has weakened the warriors.
    Also, I believe the invention of firearms might have meant something. What good is being a close combat master when the people coming at you can kill you at a long distance?
    It was originally a warrior art. The warriors of today carry rifles and machineguns, with little use for close fighting. That's why I think karate has softened. It has become obsolete and the need for it to maintain it's lethality has gone.
     
  9. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    I don't think anyone really knows what its roots really are.
     
  10. stump

    stump Supersub

    <<<Karate is softer because society is softer. Back when it was invented, attacks by robbers were more common than they are today, people starved more and there was more anarchy. Stability and peace has weakened the warriors.>>>

    If you look at the UFC that argument doesnt hold. As organisations develop and grow they need to organise, develop beauracracy and standardise. It is these traits that was watered down karate. If you want to appeal to the masses you have to sell them a product they want. Less people want to train like real fighters with real contact than want to play at martial arts or do it for self development reasons. Therefore karate and other arts changed their focus, droppped the less appealing parts of their training and attracted the masses.

    Personally speaking looking back is never a good idea...identify what is wrong and then fix it in a way suitable for modern society.

    If you start looking back you become a historical society....an anachronism
     
  11. Adam

    Adam New Member

    UFC? Who says there wasn't a million karatemen in the age of shoguns that wouldn't have been able to whoop every man in the UFC?

    I BELIEVE that both the people and the fighters have become weaker, as you don't really have to learn fighting techniques to survive those days.

    I do believe that increased mysticism and tradition had a part in weakening bushido though.

    Andrew Green is right. It's just what I personally believe them to be.
     
  12. stump

    stump Supersub

    A quick question. Has the world record for the 100m sprint increased or decreased in the last 100 years? How about the record for running the mile? Improved training methods and the cumulation of knowledge have lead to improved performance in practically every sphere of life.

    There were no karate men in the age of shoguns btw ;)
     
  13. Adam

    Adam New Member

    I base my thought on the stories I've heard and read about the strength of people in the old days. (I had vikings in mind when I wrote the last post.)

    I think the human race has degenerated rather than evolved over the last few hundred years. As for the 100m sprint, if you look at the difference in training methods and the size of the runner's leg muscles between now and 100 years back, of course the runners of today are better. They train harder, it doesn't mean they train better.

    Again, Andrew Green is right.
    We will never find out what the ancient fighting styles were like though, unless someone like Miyamoto Musashi or the Tiger King is suddenly found frozen in an glacier.
     
  14. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    We are going to end up cutting up rough again if you keep saying things like that. Compare that to hitler's crazy rantings and you'll find uncomfortable similarities. Go to africa, or asia or a farm in scotland, and you'll soon learn the truth.
     
  15. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    Ok, I want a new rule:

    No one is allowed to say something like this:

    and something like this:

    [/QUOTE]
    Andrew Green is right. It's just what I personally believe them to be.
    [/QUOTE]


    in the same post...

    Karate is primarily a cultural art with some self-defence side-effects. Treat it as such and you will enjoy it and get into less fights over it.

    But it is not about fighting and it is not particularly good for fighting, that is not what it does. The structure/posture and the training methods that we do know where used do not support the theory that karate ever developed great fighters.

    The oral history does, but it is also clearly exagerrated and not all that accurate.

    If defending against attackers and fighting battles was an issue they would have had weapons.
     
  16. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Well, all the good karateka I know take self-defense or something else outside of lessons. Karate isn't particularly good for exercise. I hesitate to refer people to the shotokan planet AGAIN, because it might bore people. I was under the understanding that karate was developed in Okinawa for unarmed peasants to defend themselves against the armed ruling clan.
     
  17. Telsun

    Telsun Valued Member

    ?
    It is where I train!!! Down to the club, me thinks.
    It has been said a couple of times that the roots are not known, this is indeed true. We can only take from what we learn from living legends.
    But I do not think that the 'roots' is what is being seeked. I think that it is the times of quality karate, a time when charlitan clubs did not exist, when people trained hard and if they couldn't they didn't train. Karate should not be soft. If people want soft they should try Tae Bo. After all if someone can't swim they don't go in the water. But if they really have the desire to learn they will go in for as long as it takes.
    Of course those days will never return. There are hundreds of "new" martial arts nowadays and unfortunately karate is deemed as one of the least effective of all arts. This saddens me.
     
  18. gingerninja

    gingerninja Don't mock the sideburns

    Nope, karate evolved out of a combination of introduced Chinese styles and the Okinawian art of te (tode, tuite) - a all in art (stricking, throwing, joint manipulation and groundwork) that was taught to the upper and ruling classes. This eventually spread out of the traditional family heritage system into the relative mainstream.
     
  19. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    First, karate was primarily a thing FOR the upper classes.

    Second there is no way in hell an unarmed peasant is going to fight off a armed professional soldier/

    Shotokan planet has some good stuff, and some bad stuff. If nothing else from that site you should have gotten that you should not take things for granted, even things on that site.
     
  20. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    For the upper classes? My god, I've been lied to...
    Depends on the armed proffessional and on the peasant. A fit, healthy peasant with lots of real pub fights under his belt would whip the **** off a lax, undisciplined young soldier without much practice...
    I think the important point here is that karate's 'roots' are only part of the wider scene. We can select what we want from what is available, new and modern, western and eastern.
     

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