Should I do boxing?

Discussion in 'Boxing' started by Bruce_Lee93, Jun 15, 2010.

  1. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Hence my previous statement:

    Um. What? They teach you to punch in every Martial Art ever. I terms of natural weapons, Humans got the short end of the stick. That bony protrusion that pops up every time you close your hands is abut all we got, homey.

    The only thing I care about is reaching the optimal training method. Not self defense, not fighting, not combat sports. All I care about is reaching the optimal training method. The punch doesn't matter. Your statement is tantamount to the following:

    "Why would I ever need this screwdriver when I've got a hammer?"
     
  2. tkd GU

    tkd GU Valued Member

    Hey, I don't know. There could be people on here who don't know boxing or mma well enough to know the difference in the occurance of head blows. It's obvious to you and probably most mappers, but there are still the folks who are totally new to the world of martial arts and combat sports. I could justify nonsense all day. Don't think for a second that you're the only one who can be obnoxious.
     
  3. tkd GU

    tkd GU Valued Member

    Yohan,

    About your statement on those boys breaking their hands:
    I doubt it's that they have superior punching power, it's that mma glove provide a lot less protection than boxing gloves.

    Punching in every martial art ever:
    You must mean every conventional martial art ever. The new stuff that's supposed be for the real world relies mostly on elbows, knees, kicks below the waist and open hand techniques.

    Your last words:
    Good for you. Still, I was aware that there are many different reasons why people get into the martial arts before you made that last statement.
     
  4. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    That's what I'm trying to say. Let me lay it out in chronological order.

    UFC 1-X(the one where they started using gloves): everyone broke their hands because there were no gloves
    UFC X(the one where they started using gloves): Everyone stopped breaking their hands because they started using gloves.
    UFC Y: They started breaking their hands again, because now they can punch for real.

    To hell with the new stuff. I don't give a crap. People have been beating each other stupid for X thousand years and if you think the new stuff has come up with a technique that hasn't been done before, you are kidding your self. Fighters have used the closed fist since time immemorial. Even in the art that you practice: the way of the fist and the foot. Not the elbow. The fist.

    I don't follow.
     
  5. tkd GU

    tkd GU Valued Member

    I'm not sure I follow you either. And again, the every ma ever and punch thing, I can think of one traditional art that I see mostly hand techniques beside the punch- Wing Chun.

    And by new stuff I don't mean to say it's incredible scientific break-through. It's just knew to all the martial artists who never thought to do something besides punch an attacker across the jaw. The techniques aren't anything special, it's just the philosophy of those systems that's new to most.
     
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You need to be able to punch. If you are talking about the real world, who cares if you break a hand, it is all about getting home alive.
    In punching range you should punch and bloody hard. It is no good trying to substitute something else because you can't punch.

    You also mention 'the new stuff', there is no new stuff, tell me what's new. Is there a new punch, a new kick, a new arm bar, no there isn't. There may be new methods, new training methods, but no new techniques. There are unfortunately too many peoplewith to few hours under their belt claiming new secret skills aimed for 'the street'.

    Going back to the original question of 'should I do boxing', I think all martial artists at some stage should at least train with a boxer.

    Generally martial artists do not move as well or have the footwork of a boxer and do not hit as hard as a boxer, so even if it is not your thing, training with a boxer makes you ask questions of yourself.
     
  7. tkd GU

    tkd GU Valued Member

    simon s,

    How are you going to make it home alive if a second guy jumps you after you knocked the first one out and broke your hand? That is the question that has led those new systems to diminish the value of a regular punch. You have to consider all possibilities. It doesn't hurt to learn how to box, but don't forget that getting jumped by multiple attackers is a real possibility. I think the reason krav maga (at least the version that I've seen) values intact hands so much is because it's for soldiers who are less useful to the army if they break their hands punching.
     
  8. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Do me a favour. That is the sort of question I get asked by a newby.

    I will humour you and answer your question.

    If I am fighting multiple attackers I will use what I have to hand. Driving people into walls, headbutts, knees, elbows and YES punches.

    Let me ask you a question. What do you do. You said about Krav Maga (an art I like) 'the versions I have seen', not done.

    I think you are asking questions of others, but not of yourself. What cross training do you do? Do you even cross train or have you only ever done one art. What gives you the understanding to give an arguement against punches?
     
  9. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Let's assume you don't get to the second guy because you wouldn't punch the first one. Now what? Not only are you hosed, you don't even have a good story.
     
  10. tkd GU

    tkd GU Valued Member

    I took a few lessons in krav maga. I didn't claim it as my art because I only tried it out a couple times. It is a very effective system, but I opted to just stick with what I know-taekwondo. If I was ever to travel to a dangerous place, I might seriously consider getting into one of those real-world systems, but for now I'm happy enough with what I'm doing.

    Yohan, let's say your hands are already broken from yesterday's riot. The only useful thing you know how to do as with your hands is punch. What do you do then?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2010
  11. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Man you are dumb.:bang:

    You took a few lessons in Krav Maga, but chose to stick to what you know. So you are argueing for a style you chose not to adopt. Then in the next sentence say you might do that art if you traveled to a dangerous place. What, are you going to do a three week course before a holiday and hope that will give you enough to defend against multiple opponents?

    Now for the next dumb statement.

    Now you are just being stupid. Are you going to post a 'what if' after every reply you are given and do you think because some of us use punches that is all we can do?

    What if you break an elbow (your prefered weapon) in yesterdays riot.

    You can worry a lot less about what ifs, if you train hard, hone all of your weapons and do the hard work in the gym.
     
  12. tkd GU

    tkd GU Valued Member

    I'm just trying to make the point that you can't rely on punches. So you are totally correct, it's best to practice using all the weapons you can. Another thing, the beauty of those close quarters combat systems is that there very simple compared to conventional martial arts, so it doesn't take nearly as much dedication to be able to get something good out of them. Also, since I already have a background in martial arts, I at least have a base to work off of. Right now my primary reason for practicing a martial art is not to learn self defense. I like it for the art, the aesthetics. I also hope to represent Guam in the WTF Oceania tkd championships. Krav maga is in my opinion just about one of the most realistic systems out there, but it's boring. Later on in life I'm sure my motives will change, so maybe then I'll really get into something else.
     
  13. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    If you know how to punch correctly and you're of any size it is very rare you are going to need anything else other than groundwork in a 'fight' Weapons and mythical beasts obviously alter the situation and knowing an art that specializes in that field would be a great help but I wouldn't want to rely on the sort of disarms found in your local TKD store. (think that's the correct term??)
     
  14. tkd GU

    tkd GU Valued Member

    I'm 125 lbs(a little less than 58kgs). So I guess I'm one of those few that need more than good punching and ground work. Mythical beasts? I'm sure I won't be running into any ligers in the jungles of Guam..the biggest problem is just meth addicts and drunks. I'm not sure where you're coming from with that weapons and mythical beasts remark anyway...
    Again with the tkd bashing! I realize that many schools have done a lot to tarnish the art's reputation, but please do try to be mature about it and refrain from generalizing ALL of us as McMartial artists.
     
  15. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Interestingly enough, breaking your hand is less about how hard you punch somebody and more about what target you hit. Also interesting is one of my coworkers who runs a boxing gym for troubled youths occasionally has his guys slam the bag with palm strikes so they get a feel for them.

    Krav Maga does teach punches actually.

    Since you do Tae Kwon Do which is notorious for having little to no punching, I imagine that's why you don't feel punches are very important. However, statistically, a large amount if not most KOs in stand-up fights (boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, and yes even the notorious "street") are due to hand blows to the head.
     
  16. tkd GU

    tkd GU Valued Member

    I'm not an expert in Krav maga, so thanks for pointing out to me that they do teach punches. In all fairness, though, in the heat of a self defense situation, it's hard land a precisely aimed punch to the head. The chance of landing it on a space that could possibly break your hand is only beaten by the chance of missing altogether. By the way, taekwondo has far more hand techniqes than than kicks. Just watch somebody perform traditional tkd forms and that will soon be apparent. The widespread popularity of the sport is the only reason so many people believe it to be the other way around. Right now I'm training in the sport, so yeah, I mostly kick. Trust me though, I know better than to fight on the street the same way I do in the ring.
     
  17. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You fight like you train. It takes 21 hours (if training correctly) to get muscle memory. So lets say out of your I hour lesson you spent 10 minutes training a technique you would use on the street. It will take 6 lessons to reach just I hour of practice. That means 126 lessons to obtain the necessary muscle memory, so if you train once a week it will take 2.4 years to get a technique you would use instinctively on the street.

    Also I have heard a thousand times a student say "if it kicks off I will just change up a cople of gears". Most students I see do not have the ability to change gears. So unless you do it in the gym, you will not do it outside of the gym.
     
  18. tkd GU

    tkd GU Valued Member

    Come on now, do you seriously think if I'm attacked I'm only going to punch to the body and keep all kicks above the waste? Besides, I'm only just now training for sport. At my last dojang I trained more realistically.
     
  19. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    No but I bet you"ll hesistate.
     
  20. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I'm sure a kick is even harder.

    That's why the more training you do, the less likely this will occur.

    That's because it's based off of karate. If you believe that forms are based off of what was actually used in a real situation at one point for one person, and take a stock of what techniques are actually used, it's interesting to see that it's roughly about 3/4 hand techniques in most kata/forms. There's probably a very good reason for that...

    You will fight how you train. As my signature says, you won't suddenly rise to the occasion but you're going to fall back on how you're trained.

    A perfect example of this is how police officers used to shoot on ranges with their revolvers. Since they wanted to keep their range clean, after speed loading their revolvers they would put the empty brass in their pockets. They didn't think anything of it. Soon, they started having situations in where officers were involved in a gunfight and once the adrenaline cooled down realized they had a handful of brass. Even worse was when they came across officers shot dead in the street and saw they were still clutching the brass or had their hands in their pocket putting their brass away. Needless to say, they don't do that anymore.
     

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