The last person did cut his leg quite badly if you watch carefully and I don’t think you can do such things without injury. I thought martial arts was about improving your health, not destroying it for fame. On a similar note I met a Chinese herbal doctor from Henan, same village as Shaolin temple. I asked her why I only see young shaolin monks perform stunts and what is the physical condition of the older monks. She told me that many of them suffer with arthritis and other health problems but that it is kept quite, she personally treated many of them. I wonder if I did such things as a young man would I look back as an older man with health problems and say "it was worth it", I don’t think so.
Define, Prepare, And Achieve Sulaiman wrote:Guru Omar din is not my Guru and I do not have a personal axe to grind - only that when I took my oath with my master I vowed to respect all other silat players and not to make fun , or act superior to them , or to give myself the right to judge whether or not they are " real Silat " ******************* Salam Sulaiman and Kiai Carita, There is not my intention to disrespect Guru Omar and his Silat Lincah system. I did not know him from Adam, say to speaks. I'm a straight shooter, when someone told me things that outrageous, I like to see it to believe it. I've been around too long to see this things going around and around. Therefore, I am very pesimistic of "all" the claims outthere, I meant all the story tales. I'm not an expert in silat or in anything, but I know and I preach to my students and to all who want to hear. What is your GOAL/OBJECTIVE to learn Silat or Martial arts? THINK!!!! You cannot focus without an object to focus upon. You cannot arrive somewhere unless there is a "somewhere" to arrive at. You cannot achieve the goal unless there is a goal. And you cannot have a goal unless a goal has been defined. Therefore to achieve your goal-DEFINE YOUR GOAL! Obvious? Perhaps, but most silat students or martial arts students do not define their goal before they begin its pursuit. Defining your goal is not an easy task, it requires you to pin down your desires from an abstract notion to a very real commitment. Defining a goal in learning silat compels you to know that which you wish to accomplish. If DEFINING your goal is the first step in attaining your goal, then PREPARING for it is your second. Doing that requires spending time on something you believe you know all ready know. Most individuals, however, believe that preparation is not required for sometihng they all ready know. Notihng could be further from the truth. If you don't, you will be in for a very rude, very humbling awakening. ACHIEVE- The facts are these: Most students do not define their a goal. Of these who do, most won't prepare for it. And among those who both define their goal and prepare for it, most will fail to reach it. They will fail because of an inability to work single-mindedly in a completely focused fashion toward that goal. Many silat students fail to achieve their goal because they change it while they are working toward it. Why do they do so? Becaue working toward a goal with single minded determination is difficult. It easier to modify your goal or to do away with it altogether than it is to achieve it. Now, I want all of you to sit down that think as hard as you can, what is your goal in learning silat? Only you can answer it and only you can benefit from it. WHEN YOU CANNOT DEFINE A GOAL, YOU CONSEQUENTLY CANNOT DEFINE THE PATH TOWARD THAT GOAL. THUS, WITHOUT A GOAL, YOU EXPEND A GREAT DEAL OF ENERGY IN PURSUING MULTIPLE 'FUZZY' GOALS. Seriously, there are more people who gave up in learning silat because they cannot define their goals and lived all their lives in regret for it, than there are people who achieved their goals and lived to regret it. Far more. Most of us, in fact, are surrouded by those failed lives every day. Most of us could be come one. DEFINE, PREPARE, ACHIEVE. My worthless Saturday Sermon, Tristan
WHEN YOU CANNOT DEFINE A GOAL, YOU CONSEQUENTLY CANNOT DEFINE THE PATH TOWARD THAT GOAL. THUS, WITHOUT A GOAL, YOU EXPEND A GREAT DEAL OF ENERGY IN PURSUING MULTIPLE 'FUZZY' GOALS. Seriously, there are more people who gave up in learning silat because they cannot define their goals and lived all their lives in regret for it, than there are people who achieved their goals and lived to regret it. Far more. Most of us, in fact, are surrouded by those failed lives every day. Most of us could be come one. DEFINE, PREPARE, ACHIEVE. My worthless Saturday Sermon, Tristan[/QUOTE] Salaams Mas tristan, Not sure how your post relates to the topic we were discussing , but aside from that it is a very interesting topic in itself, and as it was addressed to me I will ask your indulgence for my reply. I have found that my goals in learning silat have changed the more my practise has increased. Everyday there comes a new understanding , movement , energy or feeling and the goal posts are constantly moving. Its like climbing mountains , you get to one horizon to see...another one , even higher. I am understanding now that this process is endless and will continue until and beyond my death. For that reason I have abandoned goals or plans. I am trying to be happy with my Lords plan for me , as his always works out , and mine always fails. I continue to do silat for the only reason there is ....love. adios
culture clashes? It is always nice to see how interpretations and views will change when stuff travels around the world, in this case silat. I love to hear the, in my case Indonesian, stories about the impossible. It may help to be part of a culture to accept the impossible but it's obviously not a neccesary feat. Tristan is a good example of this and I know quite a lot of Indonesians who would agree with him. Well obviously there are people who are completely strange to this magik concept as they are westerners but adhere it as they were Indonesians. I'm somewhat double harted towards this subject of culture and beliefs but that's my own struggle. Who will tell what lies beyond my line of sight...... I would never accept this obligated this kind of 'pledge of allegience' of my guru and happily so he never did. Do I mind if others do, not really. Just do your thing. I'm well aware that it is to a large extend part of the Indonesian/Malayan culture and thats it to me, can't change that even if I wanted to. The way it is expressed may differ but it has been there for a long time, so who am I, just borrowing some of it, to judge people who are willing to do, in my eyes, irresponsible things. I'm not bigger then some square feet around me and I have sometimes even doubt about this . We can be sure of one thing though the kebatinan has always been around in most silat and most of us have gladly taken at least the physical aspect of it. In the western culture it's easier, sometimes even neccesary to led go of the esoteric side and in time more Indonesian/Malayan might even do that to, who knows. I wouldn't want to mock anyone though who truly believes kebatinan and these pledges to be essential, where does it hurt me anyways? As long as they don't judge me for the lack of it I won't judge them for using it. Pekir
Salaams Mas tristan, Salam Sulaiman Not sure how your post relates to the topic we were discussing , but aside from that it is a very interesting topic in itself, and as it was addressed to me I will ask your indulgence for my reply. Thank you! I will try to be gentle I have found that my goals in learning silat have changed the more my practise has increased. I think you are confused between tasks/steps and goal. Before you are joining the silat class, what is your goal to join the silat perguruan?. Ie. Most people learn to be a good silat player, for health reason, for self-defense or for the love of the art, etc. Your goal should not want to learn how to do the very few of basic techniques. That's part of the many steps to achieve your goal..whatever it was. Everyday there comes a new understanding , movement , energy or feeling and the goal posts are constantly moving. Once again bro, you cannot achieve your goal if your goal constantly moving. Again you are describing the steps or plateau or tasks. NOT A GOAL. Its like climbing mountains , you get to one horizon to see...another one , even higher. Your goal should be to climb the mountain..to be on the top of mountain. But you have to know what mountain you have to climb. When you achieve your goal then plan for another goal. Another example, your goal is to climb the top of mountain Everest. That's your goal, in order to do that, you may have to practice climbing the smaller mountains. This is the task or steps to achieve your goal. After you have achieve climbing the Mountain Everest, then if you wish to climb another higher mountain, that is your choices. The most important things is achieving a goal, whatever your goal is I am understanding now that this process is endless and will continue until and beyond my death. Becareful with that words, Sulaiman. Just enjoy the process, don't make a big deal of it. Many student made the same promises when they are just started. After 10 years, almost all them quit before achieving their goal. For that reason I have abandoned goals or plans. What you describing is NOT a goal but a process/steps/tasks. Remember, You can not go somewhere, if you don't know "somewhere" is. I am trying to be happy with my Lords plan for me , as his always works out , and mine always fails. Sulaiman, don't worry, be happy I continue to do silat for the only reason there is ....love. The secret of learning silat for along time is, you have to treated silat as something that you love to do. If you happen to love to play tennis, then treated your silat practice as you are playing tennis. If you happen to love biking, then treat silat as part of your biking routine. That's only an example. It works for me, I've been in silat for 52 years. Still slow and move like a pregnant yack with a bad leg adios Kembali, Tristan
Whisky Tango Foxtrot! Are you accussing me promoting magick? Please read my previous posts then feel free to have an opinion. It seemed you DID NOT! Tristan
The Goal Assalamualaekuuuuum everyone (bowing head, hands in sembah position), I think that both Mas Tristan and Sulaiman are right and they ARE talking about the same thing from different angles. When I began studying silat I was told to think about my goal and to achieve that I was to ponder on the question of 'Sangkan Paraning Dumadi' - Where Creation Comes From and Where it Will Go. So to my mind, silat, and all other ilmu (knowledge) and amal (deeds), should be concentrated on that goal. Wassalam, Bram.
Wa Alaikum Salam Bram I respectfully disagree with you. There is no angels. Define your goal, prepare for it and achieve it. Let me try to give another example: You are planning to visit your family in Jakarta, that is your goal. On your way to Jakarta by car, half way, the road is blocked by falling trees. It force you to turn around and make another way. You decided to go by plane, there is no plane available. You have two alternatives, to wait for plane or to wait for the road to clear up OR abandon your goal to visit your family. There is no angle We got to focus on our goal, it is much easier to abandon than to stay the course. Therefore, define your goal, a simple and achievable goal. When your goal is accomplished than go for a bigger goal. There is no angle Another example. You want to become a doctor. You have to go to grade school, undergraduate, postgraduate, and Medical School. We are talking about over 22 years of schooling. Anything can happen in those 22 years. But at the end, your goal is still to become a Doctor. Either you achieve it or you failed. There is no angles Warm Regards, Tristan
Thank you for the response, Mas Tristan. I must of understiod you wrong, then. May I ask, what is your goal in learning silat? Warm regards too, Bram
Salam Bram, Am I wrong? That is your opinon...Thank you At first, I don't have a goal to learn silat, I was told to do so or else When I was teen, my goal is for bela diri...Mission accomplished, I've been in many streetfights and enjoyed it and lived to tell about it. As an adult, my goal was and still is..Learning silat for the love of the arts. As I had said, I've been in silat for over 5 decades and still learning. May I ask you Bram or Sulaiman? Since you are talking with the authority in silat or it seemed, how long you have been in silat? And what is your goal to learn silat? Tristan
One Simple Goal Salaam, Mas Tristan, I did not say you were wrong, I said that I understood you wrong. I thought that you were saying that one needed a goal in silat, and I thought that it meant God. So it was my mistake, and I appologise for misscommunicating. I am younger than you Mas Tristan, and have only been studying silat a short while, so I am not an authority. I began learning silat in 1983 when I was 18 and when I was beginning, I was told to meditate on the question where is Creation from and where is it going (Sangkan Paraning Dumadi). For me, Creation is from God and will go back to God, and so all ilmu (knowledge, including silat) and amal ( deeds, including the keeping of silat and the applications of silat) need to have that goal in mind. Without the goal in mind you might miss, right? Warm salaams, Bram.
Salam all, I'm not surprise with some missunderstanding the meaning of goal. Its not a language barriers or different cultures. Its just too many people don't understand the important of goal..... in anything. How many of us failed to achieved our goal in something? But the fact is, many of us failed in something. Therefore, first we have to define our goal, its a long and thughtfull process. We have to ask ourselves, it is achievable goal? It is realistic goal? Different goal requires different tasks, are we prepare for it? Are we willing to stay the course to achieve it? With all do respect, many Asian silat players or silat students in general have a very broad and an unattainable goals ie. to be a Saint, a Fierce and Compassionate Warrior, and Humble. IMHO, trying to be a Saint but at the same times bragging about their Godly power (Takabur), Preching to be a warrior but never been in fights, pretend to be a religious but practice something that contradicted with the religion practices, Preaching to be compassionate but not practice what they preach (how many of this people volunteer their time to help the poor and the needy, donated something to the Masjid, or just simply donated time to help others?) Define your goal.... You can't have a goal to be a Saint, Jago, Warrior, Compassionate person, all in one goal. Choose one and go for it. Otherwise, you have a fuzzy goals. Tristan
Salam Mas Bram, No need to appologize, we are talking among friend, disagreement is allows I think, I can be wrong on this, as usual. Many people in Asia learn silat without separating religion and gerak badan. IMHO, you don't have to learn silat if your goal to be a religious person and you don't have be religious if your goal learning silat is gerak badan. This two separate entities if I may say. Love is kindness, kindness is compassionate but love is not religion. I can be wrong too Warm regards, Tristan
May I ask you Bram or Sulaiman? Since you are talking with the authority in silat or it seemed, how long you have been in silat? And what is your goal to learn silat? Tristan[/QUOTE] Salaams Mas Tristan, Of course you may ask - I am a youngster - training silat only these last 13 years, but I am a lucky one and found a proper guru , so when i say training I mean it - as I had the honour of being accepted to live with my master. As for my goals - i do not think I am confused about the meaning of the term , I have 1 goal and 1 goal only , it is to be an obedient servant to my Lord Almighty. How does this relate to Silat ? Well , to be a servant of your lord , you must first stop being a servant of your ego and its desires. To train silat you must find a master, the ego must accept an authority over it , this is a step in the right direction. We start with the body , silat training combats laziness. we continue with the emotions and silat training combats fear , anger and aggression. We continue with the mind and silat training combats prejudice, tunnel vision - the mind abiding in things . We continue to Spirit and ... well ..the ultimate goal could be stated as to aquire good manners and characteristics, towards your fellow creatures and people in the creation but most importantly to your creator. Our models are the Companions of the Holy Prophet , who were trained and refined by their following of his way. There is for me no discrepancy between a saint, a warrior etc - the sahabis were ALL these things and more rolled into one - they have left us a way , which if we try with sincere intention to follow it - must arrive to the same destination - These are not " fuzzy goals " they are clear cut , definite and achievable , as one master said specialization is for insects , a man must be able to build houses , write poetry, fight wars , change nappies , grow vegetables, sail ships etc We do not know our own potentials or limits - our goal must be to come out of the shadows and live in the light From Allah we are coming and to Allah we are returning. As for not equating religion with love - I dont know what religion you are pracising but for me its ALL and only about love. The message of all religion as I understand and have been taught it is only to love one another. :Angel: Adios Hermano
As for not equating religion with love - I dont know what religion you are pracising but for me its ALL and only about love. Salam Sulaiman, It is very obvious that we are interpreted the whole things in different views, that's okay...I agree to disagree When I said love is not religion meaning that when we trully love one another, when we are compassionate about others need as ours. When we are act and be kind to another human being, that's love. Love don't kill.... Religion? Historically, the leader of organized religion always preaching kindness to the people who are agreeing with them, otherwise, they are would be scrutinized, chastisesed it, and they find any reason to justify the killing of another human being. Proof me wrong, please???????? The message of all religion as I understand and have been taught it is only to love one another. :Angel: Sadly they do not practice what they preach. Tristan
Salaams Mas Tristan, Of course you may ask - I am a youngster - training silat only these last 13 years, but I am a lucky one and found a proper guru , so when i say training I mean it - as I had the honour of being accepted to live with my master. Right back at you Sulaiman Its good to hear that you have found a true master and being accepted to live with your master. Learning one to one is always the best. As for my goals - i do not think I am confused about the meaning of the term , I have 1 goal and 1 goal only , it is to be an obedient servant to my Lord Almighty. Alhamdullilah!! Thank God all mighty. That is a huge goal to achieve. Another modren Gandhi or Mother Teresa? But Good luck and God Bless. How does this relate to Silat ? Please do tell Well , to be a servant of your lord , you must first stop being a servant of your ego and its desires. I agree wholeheartly, but tell me who does not have an ego? This is a bad habit or character defects, everyone have it. To keep your ego at bay, you must learn what an ego is? Surrendered to HIM and accepted that we all have an ego. We can be proud of what we have or we want to do with it but we must also understand the consequences of being an ego person. To train silat you must find a master, the ego must accept an authority over it , this is a step in the right direction. I agree, You must accept your teacher as he is. Empty your cup! We start with the body , silat training combats laziness. we continue with the emotions and silat training combats fear , anger and aggression. I agree to disagree here. Silat training is gerak badan and laziness is behavior or bad habit. What is lazines anyway? Can you elaborate on this? Combat fear? Everyone fear of something, courarge can overcome the fear, by just learning silat, its not a guarrany to combat fear, it help but not guarranty. As far as Anger? Have you ever read or go to anger management seminar? This is nothing to do with silat though, just a professional psychologist teaching us how to handle our anger. A good seminar I may say. We continue with the mind and silat training combats prejudice, tunnel vision - the mind abiding in things . Sound very interesting..If I may ask, do your master have a student that practice other religion? Christian, Buddha or Jewish? If not why not? Why he only teach to Muslim student? Is that prejudice toward other religion? Or belief that only muslim students deserve to learn silat? Is that a tunnel vision? Remember we agree that we should love everyone? Regardless race,nationality, and belief? We continue to Spirit and ... well ..the ultimate goal could be stated as to aquire good manners and characteristics, towards your fellow creatures and people in the creation but most importantly to your creator. I respect your belief. If your belief is true then please teach the people in the Middle East ie. like Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Aghanistan a good silat. To STOP this senseless killing. People who claimed a religious but able to justify killing as a Holly War. People who kidnapped an innocent and cut their throats, shot them to death or bomb their home/houses just because they being different then them, a Sunny vs. ****es for example both of this people religion are Islam. Our models are the Companions of the Holy Prophet , who were trained and refined by their following of his way. Is a good model, indeed. There is for me no discrepancy between a saint, a warrior etc - the sahabis were ALL these things and more rolled into one - they have left us a way , which if we try with sincere intention to follow it - must arrive to the same destination - These are not " fuzzy goals " they are clear cut , definite and achievable , as one master said specialization is for insects , a man must be able to build houses , write poetry, fight wars , change nappies , grow vegetables, sail ships etc Your opinion may be differ. We have different goal for different things, there is no such things is one goal and one goal only. Let me gave another example of a simple goal. If I plan to eat dinner tonight, my goal is eating dinner. My tasks are either I'm going to cook or going out to a restaurant or find someone who will cook for me or give me a food. If I don't do neither, I failed my goal. If you work for someone, some one, your boss or manager will give you an objective/goal, that goal becomes your goal, if you are not succesfully achieve that goal, you may have to pay some consenquences. If I play to practice We do not know our own potentials or limits - our goal must be to come out of the shadows and live in the light Wise words From Allah we are coming and to Allah we are returning. Inna Lilahi Wa Inna Lillahi Raziun? Wassalam, Tristan
Mas Tristan said: I respect your belief. If your belief is true then please teach the people in the Middle East ie. like Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, Aghanistan a good silat. To STOP this senseless killing. People who claimed a religious but able to justify killing as a Holly War. People who kidnapped an innocent and cut their throats, shot them to death or bomb their home/houses just because they being different then them, a Sunny vs. ****es for example both of this people religion are Islam. Rahayu Mas Tristan, In my humble opinion, the situation in the world today is the result of oppression that has been going on for a long time, and the threads become visible from the days of colonialisation. It's still happening today. The turmoil in the Middle East (and elsehwere) is a direct result of an environment that results from oppression. For an example of environments and what can happen, let's look at a micro-cosm. If we create an environment with no sewerage, people can catch dysentry and cholera because those pathogens thrive in that environment. Religion and beliefs become convenient red herrings, because it has the effect to change people's focus from what is the root cause of conflict, social injustice and oppression. Social injustice and oppression creates a ripe environment for regional conflict. Sure there have been conflict between Shi'a and Sunni, but it is out of proportion because of world political environmental situation I think. Think about it, more innocent people have died as a direct result of the conquest and the negative influence of the West (there also have been positive influences), than those who died as a direct result of 'terrorism'. You might find some of that information on the Internet. Que Bono? Who benefits? Just follow the money ... And to steer this back into the discussion ... I think we can all agree that some people see a separation between spirituality and actions (e.g. Gerak Badan) and some people do not. :Angel: Personally I believe manunggaling kawula Gusti, my life is an expression of Hyang Widhi, Gusti Alah. So while I can appreciate the Gerak Badan aspect, it is to me inseparable to my spiritual being . Oh, and I am not as old as you either ... hehe. I have only been playing 'gerak badan' for 40 years, only last 5 years I start to understand a little . Salam Krisno
Rahayu Mas Tristan, In my humble opinion, the situation in the world today is the result of oppression that has been going on for a long time, and the threads become visible from the days of colonialisation. It's still happening today. Kembali Mas Krisno, I agree with you in general. However, historically, people killing others because they can't agree in anything, right? With that they will find away to justify their actions, economic, oppression, religion, lands, security, etc. etc. Religion and beliefs become convenient red herrings, because it has the effect to change people's focus from what is the root cause of conflict, social injustice and oppression. Social injustice and oppression creates a ripe environment for regional conflict. Sure there have been conflict between Shi'a and Sunni, but it is out of proportion because of world political environmental situation I think. I'm not a very religious person, but I can't justify killing innocent human being because they are different. Killing them to avenge the killing of their comrades, bombs the cities for the reason of securiy. Invade soverign country for what ever reason. Killing is killing, period. If we are all believe that all religion teaching to love one another then what was going on is not love but hate. Hate is a sin. How could you justify Bali bombing for example? Think about it, more innocent people have died as a direct result of the conquest and the negative influence of the West (there also have been positive influences), than those who died as a direct result of 'terrorism'. You might find some of that information on the Internet. It goes both ways my friend. Just to blame the Western world is an easy way out. Did you know how difficult it is to be a Muslim when all you heard in the news is about how a Muslim killing each other? Some of them even took a video, showing the body of being mutilated? Burn body hanging from the bridge? Que Bono? Who benefits? Just follow the money ... Hmm, I'm an economist, I do believe economy will benefited from war. But in Iraq's sectarian war, it will hurt the Iraq's economy and its people. And to steer this back into the discussion ... I think we can all agree that some people see a separation between spirituality and actions (e.g. Gerak Badan) and some people do not. :Angel: Yes we agree to disagree here I do believe they should have two separate goals. Goal for gerak badan and a goal for being spirituals. Unfortunately people in Indonesian and Malaysia believe that only Muslim people entittle to learn silat. Until all the silat masters believe that Gerak Badan is for everyone regardless Religion, race, color, nationality. Until they can teach gerak badan without preaching religion, we will always disagree. That's okay too : Personally I believe manunggaling kawula Gusti, my life is an expression of Hyang Widhi, Gusti Alah. So while I can appreciate the Gerak Badan aspect, it is to me inseparable to my spiritual being . I highly respect your believe. All religion believe the same thing.....Not just Muslim, we have to keep an open mind here. But Silat is NOT Islam. Silat is gerak badan and Islam is a religion. We have to step back and imagine how we feel if we are not a muslim but want to learn silat from the true silat master in Indonesia. Oh, and I am not as old as you either ... hehe. I have only been playing 'gerak badan' for 40 years, only last 5 years I start to understand a little . Salam Krisno I was as good as of yesterday, and yesterday I was only a beginer Warm regards, Tristan
Tristan, Not sure if there will be two replies but I touched the wrong button and my unfinished reply dissapeared. So a second attempt. I have read your posts in this thread very good so I have no reason to assume you would ever even think to promote magickal/kenatinan aspects of silat. In the contrary. I would sooner consider you as fierce against. My post was meant to take a position in the middle, which is easy since I'm of mixed blood . Again as far as I'm concerned, I like to hear the stories but are very sceptical about the magick phenomena. I understand though that people who live in Indonesia or Malaysia are more set to accept the magick/kebatinan because for most of them it's part of their culture. On the other hand I stated there are people who where once or still are part of that culture who will not accept the magick/ilmu as a fact of life. Based on reading your posts you are one of them, and I reffered to quite a few Indonesians I know that share your opinion. Just to be sure, mentioning your name was in anyway not meant to be judgemental. What amazes me more though is that there also some western guru's who haven't originally culturally been exposed to this magick/kebatinan aspect and use it nowadays to claim and promote their silat as something special because of it. Almost to the extend that their silat is OK but their kebatinan is what makes it extra special. Claims which are in most cases quite doubtful to say the least. Won't claim my earlier post adds much value to this thread but I hope this clarifies some of what I posted earlier. Pekir
