Discussion in 'Ninjutsu Resources' started by Grimjack, May 30, 2006.
There is no Jutaijutsu on it that I can tell. Only Dakentaijutsu. I was there.
Hatsumi-sôke, Manaka Fumio when in the BJK and also now in his JNK, Tanemura Shôtô in his GBK (part of the ninpô bugei dan level), Muramatsu-sensei in his MFA (Myôfû-An). And some of the other senior BJK shihan.
As already mentioned Paul has a nice DVD on his website you can get, its well put together even though the footage is old, so don’t a expect crystal clear video, but the kata are presented very well.
Also RVD’s Japan Training tape from 1990 has some. And some other home-videos from the early 90’s from those who were at Manaka’s classes. Also the shoden level is on the old GBK tapes, and some in their new curriculum. That’s about all I can think of at the moment.
As George already corrected there is 3.
Shinden Fudô-ryû dakentaijutsu (Hatsumi Masaaki)
Shinden Fudô-ryû taijutsu (Sakagami Takehiro)
Shinden Fudô-ryû kenpô (Kaminaga Shigemi)
They are totally different schools with the same name; they’re also completely different lineages up until they merged with Toda-sensei. SFR dakentaijutsu was founded in the 1100’s if you believe that, re-founded in the early 1500’s, much more believable. SFR taijutsu being founded in early 1700’s and coming from a system which stretches back to the 800’s, again probably legend this part, being named into Ban Shinden-ryû, then later into Seishin/Shôjin Fudô-ryû, then finally into SFR.
And as George also mentions is that we are unsure if Takamatsu-sensei re-named it to jûtaijutsu for Hatsumi-sensei since he already gave headmastership of SFR taijutsu to Ueno Takashi or if Hatsumi-sensei made the changes later from the menkyo kaiden he got in this school from Ueno. Was probably Takamatsu-sensei, but that is the big “assumption” we’re all guessing on. So take it with a grain of metsubushi. To this date I am unsure of anyone who has sat down with Hatsumi-sensei and asked this question.
First, in the history of SFR taijutsu from the Ueno-den Memorial booklet it says that Miyamoto Musashi mastered this style before it was even called SFR, if you believe that or if it can be proven is another matter. So not sure where you got that from.
Second, there is no Musashi-ryû taijutsu listing, but there are listings for Musashi Enmei-ryû (ken, taijutsu) in the Bugei Ryûha Daijiten which comes from Musashi’s father via Enmei-ryû.
Third, we read about a challenge match at Toda-sensei’s dôjô between Takamatsu-sensei and two students from Musashi-ryû taijutsu, this might be the Musashi Enmei-ryû or one of its branches. Takamatsu-sensei might have shortened the name for whatever reason. We should find out more about this. This story is found in the Tetsuzan book page 86, I think its also in Hiden Togakure-ryû Ninpô (Wisdom for Life).
Wow, whoever told you that fable is blowing smoke up your ****. Hatsumi-sensei put the pictures of his menkyo kaiden of SFR taijutsu via Ueno Takashi in an issue of Hiden magazine about 5-6 years ago as George already mentioned. If you want the pics, look online or PM one of us, we have them.
The jûtai, daken and iai are all listed in Hatsumi-sensei’s densho. The iai is from SFR daken according to Hatsumi-sensei in his sôjutsu book (page 49).
The SFR you mention is Shinden Fudô-ryû (ken “fist”, bô, naginata, iai, koshi-mawari, jû/yawara, tessa). It is not connected to SFR daken or taijutsu at all and comes from a previous style then changed its name to SFR during the Meiji-period. Since it has kenpô and koshi-no-mawari in it, and is from the Okayama region it’s probably related to Takenouchi-ryû somehow but that’s my assumption. E.W. Barton-Wright is alleged to have learned this style during the Meiji-period. And as George already mentioned, this style went onto Mabuni Kenwa (Shiitô-ryû karate founder) then onto Ueno Takashi. Now it is headed by Kaminaga Shigemi.
To add to what Eric said and to increase the confusion, if there is any connection between Musashi and the SFR in the Bujinkan then there may also be a connection of SFR to Takenouchi Ryu. Musashi's father was a student of either the first or second head of Takenouchi Ryu (my notes are not in front of me, they have been shipped for my move to the Big Apple). It is the opinion of one of the Shihan of Bichu-den Takenouchi Ryu that when Musashi dueled Sasaki Kojiro that the technique he used with the oar to defeat him was inspiration from Takenouchi Ryu bojutsu. It would be interesting to dig to see if there is any connection.
Eric, I am going to be in your neck of the woods in a matter of weeks.
Ueno- san may indeed have given a menkyo kaiden to Soke. That does not change the fact that Soke went on to learn the art from the source rather than the student. He also learned Bokuden ryu and Asayama Ichiden ryu from Ueno-san, but those did not come from the Takamatsu-den. From what I hear, SFR jutaijutsu does.
Another thing I have heard since last posting in their thread that there is speculation that the jutaijutsu was derived from the dakentaijutsu or vice versa. The skills in one transfer too well to the other I am told. Both have kata that start in fudoza- which seems fairly rare. I look forward to training it in directly in a very short while.
Student? Calling Ueno a student when he was the sôke of SFR Taijutsu at the time is a strange view on it.
As I mentioned, the lineages of jûtai and daken are completely different and have no connection until they reach Toda-sensei.
Fudôza is found in other koryû jûjutsu ryûha by the way, Sekiguchi Shinshin-ryû comes to mind. Look in the Serge Mol book for a pic of it, I have video of them practicing it also.
That is what we thought. But the truth may be that the authors of the source for that might have gotten it wrong. That is what I am hearing from knowledgeable people studying in Japan.
Who is we?
Which authors of which source got what wrong?
Which "knowledgeable people studying in Japan"?
I don't need to assume now. Tanemura Sensei has confirmed that SFR taijutsu and SFR jutaijutsu are the same school. It is also confirmed that SFR taijutsu (jutaijutsu) is not within the dakentaijutsu.
Very interesting to know! Thanks!
I have all the Kata from Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu and taught it as far back as 1997, and no none of you are getting the info off me T Robinson Shidoshi.
Course review – Graham Ramsden 7th Dan and Trevor Robinson 5th dan Piel Island Cumbria 1997
By Natalie Coop published 1998
I tried to get my first glimpse of Piel Castle during the short ferry ride across to the island. I was rewarded with a face full of salt water. A promising start to a weekends training.
Piel Island is situated off the coast of Barrow in furness and is a great Venue for outdoor training. Bujinkan training seminars with instruction given By Trevor Robinson (5th Dan) and Graham Ramsden (7th Dan).
Training started at 1000 hrs on Saturday morning and the weather was looking good with a slight breeze and no hint of rain. In amongst the ruins Trevor kicked off the training with some Kukishinden ryu sword work. As the morning wore on Graham pointed out some differences in the principles of Kukishinden ryu and Togakure ryu sword, Togakure ryu being based on the use of a much shorter blade.
Graham took the lead, continuing with some sword “stuff” demonstrating a variety of ways to draw the sword.
After a break for lunch, the afternoon saw a change of location of training to outside the main body of the castle to the banks of the moat and a change of theme. Leaving swords aside for a while Trevor opted to work through some Shinden Fudo ryu jutaijutsu. There ended the first days training started everyone off with Kukishinden ryu jutte jutsu. We covered the basic movement, Kiri no Ichyo, Rakuka, Mizutori and Mawashidori.
The afternoon session saw us once more outside the castle With Trevor incorporating the principles of jutte jutsu with some Kukishinden ryu taijutsu.
All things considered it was a Great weekend, I’d escaped with the minimum of bruises and soggy clothes, Thanks to Trevor and Graham for some great Training and for a good laugh.
By Natalie Coop.
It was with great sadness that I found out that Natalie Coop (later Guest) had passed away recently. Tilly was a lovely lovely person and it was an honour to have met her in this life. She was a Bujinkan Buju to us all I typed this from a club Magazine to commemorate Tilly and her thoughts she was taken away too soon and our thoughts and best wishes go out to her family and the her Husband and Shidoshi Harvey, we will not forget you Tilly!
I know Harvey very well and Tillie too - who used to HATE the fact i called her "Nat", thus instantly making me do it more often
Nobody would need to bother you for it, it is widely available.
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