Self Defense

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by milto, Aug 25, 2009.

  1. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    I think pushing is one of the most useful aspects of Chinese martial arts. I trained with a very interesting group of thai boxers a couple of years ago - and they were really open to new ideas. One of the interesting things was that they never did any pushing, whereas, I push all the time. The junior members - some quite good fighters - were actually offended. I mean, it upset them, to be pushed - they thought it was disrepsectful. Fortunately, the two instructors were hungry for any ideas that worked, and for anything that presented a new thing to be aware of.
     
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Oh Weiliquan, as Firequans post made me realise, perhaps you were talking about projections specifically when refering to fajin in that post.

    I agree with FQ if that's what you meant then I think certainly pushes and projections can have good use for sure. But it's a case of having a big enough toolbox to give you options, and try to use something appropriate with what you're looking to achieve.

    One of my first tai chi teacher gave me some great advice about not having favourites. You can apply it to so much. In practice it's of course very hard not to favour things. But it is great advice none the less.
     
  3. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Pushing is one of the most under rated elements of self defence. For all the fights that go to the ground, there are plenty that start with a couple of pushes.

    What do you do when you spar on class? You find a clear space. But in self defence, very rarely are people in a completely clear, flat space.

    Developing a powerful ability to push someone and make them, hopefully, fall over, is a superb self defence skill. Yes, fa jin can hurt in and of itself - but its real benefit is in hitting them with an object, preferably the floor, or a wall. I don't want to chase anyone, or stick with them, or be choking them if I can possibly help it. The very first thing I want to do is push someone over - preferably a chair, or a gutter. How many deaths in fights actually come from people banging their head on the ground? Many. For knife defence especially, I want distance, distance distance - and more distance - I just want to push someone over, and that be it for the main part of my defence. Hopefully push them and make the fall so awkwardly that I'm gone before they get up.

    In the chaos, when there's no time - or you can't get over the nerves to - effectuively swing a punch or do any cool moves, and your adrenelin is bursting and you're crapping yourself, it's nothing like sparring on class. The shorter the encounter the better - bam! Fa li, over a chair, in to his buddy, over a tree root, in to a wall. You want his head to hit the wall.

    And strangely, pushing comes natrually - how many fights start like that? Push you push me? It seems to me to be a much more natrual, human response than any other.

    Even with people who aren't all that good at pushing, it can be hard to stay on your feet if they push you just right, and then maybe again as you're off balance.

    I would never over rely on any specific technique - but one thing I do spend a great deal of time on is developing a more and more powerful ability to push.
     
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Good stuff FQ, good summary of some SD scenarios there.
     
  5. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Lio, Cloudz and FQ are all making good points.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2009
  6. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    Yeah,pushing has it's place. If I'm going to use a good fajin release it's because my intent may be threw the opponent and onto an object behind him like a chair, table, or anything that he will have to deal with. That way it's like 2 on one. Maybe he's bent over a table or tripping on a curb. He has to deal with what's behind him and me!
    But to me a big fajin that leaves me just standing there posing."which I don't do" is very foolish. Watching the guys in the UFC you can kind of see some of the things i'm talkiing about and train to do. I try to remove all the dead time and spaces between it. Sometimes you will see Taiji masters throw their opponent 20 feet,but then the master just stands there. "posing" There is a huge gap between them at that point. With no reaction from the master to stick and finish. I think this is a big mistake. I follow and go where ever it goes. Not letting them ever get a chance to disengage with me and hopefully the enviromental weapon's behind him that he also has to deal with.
    Sifu Mizner is in Malaysia now, he's hoping to make it out to the states. I have invited him over to stay at my house and train with me and the master I train with.I have never met Adam in person but have talked to him for 3 years online. He sounds good! Adam's big on big fajin so it will be very interesting to see what happens. We don't do very much co-operative stuff here.

    Anyway good stuff Firequan.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  7. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    I'm working with an army guy now. I'm training him some stuff from several systems. He has had basic hand to hand stuff in the army some Bjj. I hope to get some of this stuff I'm teaching him on video,Although I'm not to keen on posting my stuff to much. I working on "peace" fighting with peace. I have to tell you he was completely shocked by what he seen. It wasn't too easy to convince him that MMA is not the only real art. He's a knuckle head. the original art of jujitsu was "welcome" "Welcoming" (JU). go in. (jutsu)"the art or means to do so" The taiji training that I do with my master has helped me find that meaning!!! So, it's peace! of coarse it's not very "peaceful if I'm on the bottom with someone well versed in shoulder pressure or dropping elbows on my face. But I like the entering concept of peace. Is also "posture related" works good!

    Oh thanks for the posts,They were good!
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  8. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    There is no class,Not in a school anyway. I train at my house, I have been doing that since I left my old Shihan and MMA 5 years ago "It was on bad terms" Their fault not mine. My old shihan trained and coached many top rated fighters, Including a couple UFC fighters. They turned on me when I wanted to learn taiji. He thought it was all B.S. well guess what, it's not, not here!
    Thing's happen when extreme yin turns to extreme yang in a millisecond. Or maybe even more Importantly and most misunderstood. The other way around.
    Reading some of this chaos stuff you wrote which I can definitely relate too.
    I don't have that anymore.(maybe a little) I look at a real right as just another grappling match with a couple strikes. It's easy to adjust the mind once you have had allot of full out grappling matches. So that's how I view a fight "2 dudes grappling" not much stress there.
    About 15 years ago all I did was karate. Just a striking art. It is like a blind man or being in the dark. once i got into grappling,both jujitsu and taijiquan. things changed. I can feel everything that the opponent wants to do to me so why on earth would anyone want to risk the entering phase just to turn around and throw the guy out "before it was over". I want to be part of his movement so he can't even find me until it's too late.
    peace.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  9. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Yeah, maybe you would, who knows? Personally, I distrust any complex 'I'd do this then I'd do that, then I'd follow up with this...'

    Not everyone has the strength to push, but I figure the simpler the technique, the more you can use it when in terror and shock. It'slike Emil Mottrisan's ridiculous 'urban combat' that is so fussy, I can't imagine even Bruce Lee making it work. Just one video of a serious violent offender going through cops like butter shows that that stuff is ridiculously un-useful for realistic self defence. Even a punch in the face doesn't stop a lot of people.

    I can't say what would work, only, keep it simple - because, despite all the theory, unless you're some kind of SAS guy, you're going to have to make it work in a terrifying, chaotic situation where part of you wants to run away, and another part of you wants to curl up and die, and by the time you've thought about what technique you 'would' use the situation has already smacked you in the head five times.

    Those who think they're gonna do this, and that, and follow it up with one of those... well, good luck to you. Maybe you will, who knows?

    Personally, my experience tells me, it won't be like that - the very first shot you throw is probably the one you'll have most conscious decision over. So make it worth something.
     
  10. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    To be honest, I pretty much just don't believe you.
     
  11. DragonPrawn

    DragonPrawn Valued Member

    If you have to think about what tech your going to use your already dead and should just walk towards the light already.
     
  12. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    HA,your too funny. What don't you believe? That my old Shihan trained top rated fighter's like Maurice Smith.or the fact that martial art schools have foot soldiers to carry out order's to keep the students in line? Or that I view a real fight as just another grappling match?
    You see this is what happens when someone decides to be real with someone esle online. well if that's your view on the thing's I say,well just don't waste your time reading my posts. Your entitled be believe what ever you want. In fact it's probably a good thing that you don't believe anything I say.
    peace
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  13. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Why, will I explode?

    Look, I'm just being real with you - and this is what I get, lol. I just don't believe you. I think - well, I know - you brag all the time - and just for that one reason, I don't believe you.

    Did you train somewhere where the trainer trained champion fighters? Sure, why not. The guy who turns up and trains twice on their basics class can make the same boast.

    Look, you do some training at home, great. I just don't believe all this nonsense about how tough you are, because, it needs to be seen to be believed. Sorry. That's how it is.

    And I also don't believe all these MMA people turned on you because you decided to taiji. I've trained with muay thai and MMA people, and met and spoken tomany more MMA people, and I've found them to be by far the most open, polite people. I think you're a taiji bore, and they just had enough of you, which you translated in your head as some kind of persecution. I could be wrong...
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2009
  14. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    Speaking of self defence. I was wondering if anyone on here has a good mid-level ability in both Aikido and Taijiquan. If so, What is the pro's and con's and if this mixture goes well together for a realistic self defence. I never tried Aikido,but I have been thinking about it allot. I think it would be fun.

    Thanks
     
  15. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    So just because you "spoke to a few MMA guys you think your an expert on how they think?" Well guess what,your talking to one right now buddy. So why don't you go ahead and keep trying to tell me from your in-depth conversation's and personal experience fighting one how I should think and act. As far as trying to impress you with name dropping,well i think i said that before "I don't like name dropping" But ya, Maurice Smith was trained by my Shihan. Ya see now,you said "you think I'm a Taiji Bore" Wrong! Now one thing I just cant understand is how people can't just read a post,like I do and either try to help or maybe even get something out of it. Instead they start talking crap.... Now I figured well we are on a taiji site and I am one of the only MMA guy who does fully support taijiquan. I have been supporting taiji for about 6 or 7 years now. Only now I here of a very few who do. So if you don't like taijiquan,then why are you here? You said you trained with Chinese masters and you don't believe in Qi? "like it's an option or something" like hey man I don't believe in Jesus. Now that I could understand! But the Chinese base their whole medical system on qi! You think about that. Oh and before you make a silly comment on what do I think I know about Asians "my wife's Asian".

    cheers
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    hmmmm, good question. IMHO, the emphasis on Taijiquan and Aikido should both be to build good fundamentals and understanding of principles... in this manner you have a foundation that can be used for self-defense as well as other aspects of martial arts.

    In my experience, one of the benefits of Taijiquan is in having a good understanding of the harmonies between different parts of the body and in the use of pivot points for efficiency of motion and generating power. Taijiquan is ideally very close range in application, within knee, elbow and clinching range. A lot of power can be generated in a very short distance allowing for effective striking at ranges many consider only grappling. Boxers, conversely, mostly do not train to strike as much at this closer than elbow ranges and therefore the power of their strikes at very close range can be jammed or reduced.

    To my knowledge, it is most often at elbow range that in most real assaults, the worst damage is done. I base this opinion on what is told to me from law enforcement trainers.

    Aikido is also very close range, but because of heavy influence on the same combat principles used with sword, for example... there is more training in Aikido related to further combat ranges.

    I believe both Aikido and Taijiquan are both good together, but I would recommend to most that they put in the years and training to get really good at the one they like the most and then use the other as supplemental training to help fill in the gaps.

    For example, both Taijiquan and Aikido utilize triangular postures with the sword. Those with many years of Taijiquan would recognize the similarities between the two and could benefit from the cross-training to help fill in gaps of understanding, knowledge, and experience... plus I always recommend cross-training in general.

    --------------------

    Now for self-defense... that is not even really a case with either Taijiquan or Aikido... the primary factors in self defense is usually going to be relevant experience, then attitude (fighting spirit), then skill as a distant third.

    For self-defense, you want experience in self-defense situations and familiarity with the environments you will be in. Good Aikido instructors, for example, will always stress you learn as you will use it... this means that you don't turn your back to the enemy, you are aware of your surrounding, you have a superior attitude, you can go from 0 to 100% in an instant, etc.

    For self-defense, find instructors with experience in real situations to help you in that area, such as law enforcement trainers, etc. Then you can take that knowledge and apply it to what ever martial art you train in. IMHO.
     
  17. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member

    Rebal Waldo,

    Excellent post.

    For self-defense, find instructors with experience in real situations to help you in that area, such as law enforcement trainers, etc. Then you can take that knowledge and apply it to what ever martial art you train in. IMHO.

    Before I moved to Academia, I spent a large portion of my working life as a Ranking Officer in one of Scotlands most difficult prisons. I can definitely identify with the above statement.

    Very best wishes
     
  18. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    Now that was a good post!
    Truth is the more watch Aikido the more convinced that with the taiji body it will work. Yes there is no such thing as Self Defence,only in a court of law.

    And yes,Energy can jam in close range fighting so that's where Zero Range fajin comes into play.

    I know that if I try to go to an Aikido school. "which I have already went to talk to the Instructor there" That my movements in their style will look more like Taiji. Do you think that they would be upset? I don't think that it would be possible from where I am at this point in time to shut it off. I'm thinking that they might be insulted. The other thing is I went to Gabrial Gozaga's to watch a class,I had a good conversation with them as they know where I trained and respect my shihan. they are pretty much the same as my MMA stuff. But it will happen there as well. The taiji will surface. It just starts trouble as they would think that I was doing things on purpose when in fact it's not. My Sifu says that it's time to break away from all those thoughts of becoming a student again. He did not say that for the money,he don't charge me no more.


    Thanks for that good post.
     
  19. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    I don't recall telling you how to think or act - just that I don't believe you. Sorry. When you say you're an MMA guy, what exactly doyou mean by that?
     
  20. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    MMA means Mixed Martial Arts.
    It's a mixure of kickboxing,Muay Thai,greco roman,and Jujitsu. Brazilian and or Japanese. It is also filled with ton's of stuff you never see in the UFC. Like fish hooks,body handles,biting,nerve attacks,eye attacks,cartilage shredding. More common stuff is Guard,mount,side control,north south,Armbars,common line armbars,armbar from guard,Arm triangle chokes from standing and from grounded position's both top or bottom. Leg triangle chokes from guard,arm and collar training,under hooks,half guard,knee's,elbows,boxing,thai kicks,leg kicks,guillotine,rear naked choke,cloth chokes,heel hooks,reverse heel hooks,key locks,bar chokes,legbar,wrist locks mostly used for set up's into transitionally position changes although they could be finishing moves.toe hold,jaw crush,shoulder strikes and or pressure,shrimping,double leg,single leg,cobra,neck cranks,spinal locks and on and on and on.
    The next phase is psychological warfare or preparedness and is equally important to the rest.

    This is the end of this conversation Firequan.
    Now just for everyone else sorry for derailing this thread.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009

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