Self Defense

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by milto, Aug 25, 2009.

  1. milto

    milto Valued Member

    How good is Tai Chi for general self defense?

    I mean, if you find yourself in a situation where you have to defend yourself, can the Tai Chi techniques be applied as effectively as say, Wing Chun?
     
  2. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    I would say they can be applied about as effectively as Wing Chun. it really depends on whether you are doing any "wrestling" in your Tai Chi class, or "boxing" in your Wing Chun class.
     
  3. embra

    embra Valued Member

    A lot depends on what a) you personally put into the training (the more the better) and b) the ability and willingness to instruct, of your teacher and c) how effectively you can train with the people there.

    For me personally the art in question is somewhat irrelevant, if a,b and c are all positive.

    TaiChiChuan can be extremly effective for self-defense, but like anything else, you have to work at it. I do not know too much about Wing Chun, but from what I can see the speed, sensitivity and surprise of Wing Chun are its major strong points, and these are equally available in TaiChiChuan. Wing Chun always looks too square for my personal taste, and TaiChiChuan should demonstrate a lot of angling and rotation of the opponent along with linear attacks and counters, but a lot depends on who you are training with.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2009
  4. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    I'm waiting at work so I'll give you the full disclosure. Wing Chun sucks. It's not that Wing Chun sucks, it's just that pretty much every Wing Chun school in existence sucks. There are so few examples where Wing Chun guys can actually show their hands in a positive manner in a confrontation.

    Additionally, Tai Chi sucks. it's not that Tai Chi as an art sucks, it's that most western Tai Chi schools suck (can't speak for the Chinese versions, I've seen some damn good wrestlers come out of Chinese Tai schools (on video that is)). Most of the Western Tai Chi schools have been taken over by hippies, navel gazers, and pensioners who don't do any kind of contact training. From what I can tell, Tai Chi is largely a Chinese Wrestling style. So if you are at a Tai Chi school, and they aren't doing any wrestling, leave that crap behind.
     
  5. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    I think the word "DEVASTATING" fits here nicely.
    I think the word "SUCKS" fits just as well.

    It's hard to find real players in taiji because it is so hard to learn,and even that isn't enough. Taiji is a biological change. Not everyone will get it, no matter how long they do it.
    It's better to go and learn Jujitsu first. That way you know you can defend yourself.
    Then you can learn taiji with no worries.
     
  6. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Tai Chi is good if you find a good teacher. Unfortunately good teachers are rare. Most folks nowadays teach it as some yoga-esque zen thing. :bang: There are still a few fighting tai chi teachers out there though...

    Also keep in mind that Tai Chi has a bit longer learning curve before you can use it for fighting than say boxing or karate.
     
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Rule of thumb.

    if there is more talking than sweating..avoid.
     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    Arguably it's as much a 'dirty boxing' style as it is a Chinese wrestling style per se. I felt that was at least worth mentioning in light of the thread being about self defence. You also can't ignore kicking and qinna when talking about TCC.



    There's a case for saying that (the second quote), a good one. I don't disagree in that I think every martial arts school/ self defence teacher should address all ranges of combat whatever their system prefers.

    However personally I would put the San Shou/Sanda format ahead of any wrestling formats in regards to all CMA's generally. In the context of what you are working towards..
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  9. DragonSpawn

    DragonSpawn Ronin

    99 out of every 100 tai chi schools are just stretching and movement exercise classes.
     
  10. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member

    99 out of every 100 people who make statements like that are idiots.

    Very best wishes
     
  11. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    99 out of every 100 things said by idiots contain more than enough truth to worry the holders of the true deadly skillz of TayChee.
     
  12. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    that's great, but seriously, can we just assume that we're talking about the ones that do teach self defence whatever ratio they are to "the exercisers".

    Can we also assume that we're actually talking about the martial art tai chi chuan and the question of self defence. Rather than something else which has nothing to do with the Opening Post whatsoever..

    sheesh.
     
  13. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    There's a simple answer to all these questions, and more.. and it is:



    "wing chun sucks donkey balls"
     
  14. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    You cant ask "is TCC effective" then assume the exclusion of 99% of what is perceived as TCC.

    On that basis we can assume that Morris dancing is effective if we disregard the 99% thats not jingling the bells hard enough.
     
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Whatever. No one talks about Morris dancing in terms of self defence - as the OP did in this case ask about taichi in those terms. That indicates he knows it is a self defence art rather than one purely of performence and or health.

    I just assume that if someone asks about taichi in respect to self defense theyt aren't asking about the % of classes that have zero to do with it on any conceivable or perceivable level.

    I don't really care about what is perceived, if it is done so in error. perceive an exercise class an an exercise class, you know..

    Otherwise all we'll be doing is stating what is (should be) the obvious by now.. how many times does it need repeating- it gets boring.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  16. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Well, I was googling tai chi in Oxford last night. Almost every one had 'self defence' in the description even though I know full well that they wont be doing much more than form.

    If hes asking the question hes not really in a position to sort the wheat from the chaff, and I now fully expect a form fairy to pop up and post that you can in fact use tai chi for SD with out the sparring, grappling and associated blood sweat and tears.
     
  17. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    You sound pretty good so I was wondering what do you consider is an effective way to approach a deadly situation that you can't run from with taiji Or with other arts you might have.
    It should have an ending to this deadly confrontation as well. I'm seeing and hearing too much on using fajin to end the fight,when in fact it don't! They might get thrown but will keep coming back. I prefer to stick with them no matter what until it is over. I also think it's a big mistake to want to center your art on big fajin.I'm not saying "you" do,but it seems to me lately that there is this big contest type attitude toward who has the biggest fajin. Not necessarily from this site. what do you think?
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2009
  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    yea.. there is that too.. I think we're on the same page and there in lies the bigger irony. That out of so called traditional kung fu schools, like say your typical wing chun, how many really offer anything over and above some exercise and "crappy self defence"...

    If we were to go by you tube and the numbers of people competing in push hands - if we're also to assume these people come from teachers and schools that do study as well the self defence techniques. Well, then I think the picture for tai chi in relation to others is not as bleak as it could be made out - and often is.

    What we're then left with is the j zoryas of the world to tough it out with the foom foomers over who has the deadliest throat strikes.:evil:


    maybe I'm expecting too much to have a contructive talk about tai chi martial arts. I accept the lack of good martial tcc around, and it's not the actual statements to that effect that bug me, but if I see them as being out of place, out of context, it bugs me. Because they detract from the possibility of having a constructive thread about tai chi martial arts on here.

    It's like you have to struggle to get all that crap out the way before you get any where with it. By then, i have lost the will to live..
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2009
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    My attitude to and understanding of fajin is very mundane. I can sum it up as the most forceful, fastest, "loosest"/ most relaxed strike(*could be a projection) i can muster and at the same time not lose good form.

    *edit

    So my basic summary on a basic self defence approach is as follows..

    Self defence can be a difficult subject, but assuming you have to go all out then it seems clear that you have to use some nastier stuff. I try to use my heavy bag to train as much my 'dirty boxing' as i can. It's not stuff I can stand in front of a training partner and do properly unless they
    padded up heavily - and to be honest all in all it isn't necessary,If you have some good sparring going on already.

    In talking about self defence we have to accept it's a discussion of ideals. At the same time it's good to have a plan.

    Basically (for striking) we are talking about elbows and headbutts mixed into your regular striking combinations as well kicks and knees with intentions to hit the groin area.

    For me the taiji strategy to self defence is to "arrive first" with strikes on the counter.

    Ideally you want to unbalance in the process between both attack and defence and and for the attacker to fall down.. with some of our help naturally.

    From there it's a matter of knowing what you want to do. A lot depends on what situation are you in, maybe we can just restrain or get away

    if we have to go all out to rid ourselves of a serious threat then we are in the realm of your "finishing moves".

    An example of a good staple and should be found in every martial art is the trusty rear naked choke - Chokes in tai chi often come from the posture "cross hands".

    Yea, keep on it till it's done. at the same time be aware of what is happening around you. That aspect - the mindset and possible scenarios are where the differences lie between self defence and sport. Also what you can get away with using, however I think that aspect is something best broached between teachers and students. My only hope is that teachers have a sensible well rounded approach to that. Because it's quite easy for them not to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2009
  20. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Where I live there are maybe fifty taiji clubs, pretty much all saying that they teach self defence. I went to one the other day - out of all the taiji clubs in my area, I chose the one with a six foot seven instructor, lol. What's that - like some kind fo karma thing? Lol.

    Anyway, I watched his stuff, then I listened to him talk to a young nurse and her ambulance driver boyfriend - and actually tell them that the stuff he would teach would help them defend themselves.

    So I pulled him on it, and told him, it never would help them - except in the most flukey scenario. They made it clear to him that they needed self defence - so, after forcing him to admit that he wouldn't be able to teach them the necessary practical skills to defend themselves, I asked him, why, knowing their needs, and how important that is - couldn't be any more important - why he didn't just tell them straight, to go and check out krav maga, or JKD, or a class specifically designed for self defence? He knew full well his stuff wouldn't protect them. When you broke through the BS, and the usefulness-tinted glasses, he knew full well. I think, really, he'd never considered just how important a mistake he was making - just how important the issue was. He only really cared about the bums on seats.

    Then I told him, when they get attacked, and they try to use some poorly trained, fantasy technique, and they get beaten or killed, then he, the instructor, will be complicit in that attack - he'll be as good as an accomplice, near enough, just as if he'd pretended to be a bear expert and told the to go in to bear country with a big cheese butty pinned to their backs.

    And then I asked him, why? Was it ego, or money?

    No answer, no answer, no answer. But he knows, whether he answers out loud or not.

    Can taiji be used for self defence? Yes, of course. Can this particular instructor you've gone to see use it, or teach you to use it? No one can really answer that without seeing you, and the instructor... and yet, we're cornered in to trying to answer the same unanswerable question over and over. The question is 'mu' - based on false premises. We can't give a specifcs-based answer to a general question, just as we couldn't answer the question 'can any jiu jitsu guy beat any taiji guy?'

    Also, we want black and white answers - so it's tempting to say that if it can't be used for self defence, then it isn't taiji as the inventors of taiji envisioned it. But, the Chinese are happy to have one kind of taiji only for health, with another kind that is more martial. In any fighting art, if it can't be used for fighting, then it isn't that art, is it? So the original question answers itself - yes, of course it can be used for self defence, becuase if it can't, then it isn't taji. Only taiji that can be used for self defence is real, martial taiji.
     

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