Maybe you just have not found the right FMA system for you yet, not all FMA systems just do knife vs knife or double knife vs knife, There are quite a few who also do unarmed against all of the above. They are out there, you just got to look a bit more is all Best regards Pat
in search of truth Good Post Pat ,I was wondering where youd got to,as you mentioned gossip mongering for the sake of it involving guro krishna or others is just a waste of time ,students leave for lots of reasons as you mentioned.Those who understand filapino martial arts also realise the empty hand crossover from stick and knife to empty hand.Pat i plead not guilty as a bystander ,kidnapped and forced to drink alcohol on a 3 day sesh lol,should have got a photo with the gypsy kings for a laugh and them matadors we bumped into. Lb ,I got it wrong im 165 1lbs the heaviest ive been for a while,still fairly average size id say, have we trained silat together in past?-mick
Right, I have been reading this with great interest and feel I have something to add. I whole heartedly agree with Pat. LB, I was at the very first UK Sayoc Seminar and I have reached a very senior grade in Krishna's Warriors Eskrima. I studied Warriors for many years and I enjoyed the Sayoc seminar. I thought the techniques were very interesting, they were taught in a fun and easy to learn way. And yes the seminar was expensive. But more importantly GOOD VALUE. I get really wound up when people bleat on about how much a seminar costs, especially if they have never been to the one in question! Krishna went to a lot of trouble and expense to get those guys over to the UK and the material taught was top notch. Now if it werent for people like Krishna, Pat and Pete Lewis (there are others and sorry to have missed you) who make the effort to bring over the top FMA instructors from around the globe, the art would not be as well represented over here. Take Pete Lewis, he brought over Master Rey Galang and introduced the Bakbakan Kali Illustrisimo System to the UK. Sure it cost more than a night out, but it opened the door to another system and I now teach this system. I couldnt have afforded to fly over to the states to learn it, so had it not been for Pete I wouldnt be teaching Bakbakan now! My point is, unless you went on the seminar, you cant say its expensive. As for the "I know people who left Krishna" comment. So do I. I am one of them. But you wouldnt catch me talking negatively about him on a public forum. He is a great instructor, with a lot to offer. I left because I found a system that suited me better. But that is purely a personal thing and I am not saying my system is better than his! I learned lots about FMA through the Warriors system and it gave me a great understanding of the art. Its just that Bakbakan suits me better... As for the knife / empty hand issue. I think that if you look deeper you will find the answers. For eg, most people outside of FMA only think we are stick fighters! Thats because that is all they see. Many of my students were surprised to learn that we have empty hands techniques such as, striking, grappling, trapping, limb destruction, small joint manipulation etc etc. In Bakbakan we have Tulisan knife fighting. We teach the weapon side first, then the empty hand applications second. Such is the way with all FMA. As for the "Big" thing. Sure the Sayoc guys are big. But they move fast and are very skillful, believe me as I have seen it first hand. Also, not all of them are big guys, and the size doesnt come into the technique at all. Sure they wear knife rigs and carry 101 knives at a time. Not always relevant for the UK I hear people say. Maybe, maybe not. They promote knife awareness and carrying them in training makes you more aware of the blade, its a deeper awareness of how to handle them. If you have them on you when you train you become more accustomed to them. Like wearing a watch. You are comfortable with it on your left arm then if you put it on your right, it feels weird. When I was on the seminar they explained that holding and wearing knives in training in such a way helps when the real threat arises... Thats their opinion and I am not saying its right or wrong. Again, Sayoc wasnt for me. Simply because the Tulisan side of Bakbakan suits me better. But I am not saying Tulisan is better.... See what I mean. We are all different. All FMA guys teach things differently and we all can learn off each other. For example I have recently started training with the Dog Brothers. Colin was very welcoming and supportive. As was my Bakbakan Instructor, Pete Lewis. Pete is comfortable enough to be happy with me training with other systems. Bakbakan and the Dog Brothers systems are similar but very different all at the same time. And both are taught differently. Just because I am an FMA instructor and teach Bakbakan it doesnt mean I cant learn something from another system and I have thoroughly enjoyed the training with the Dogs, it allows me to switch off from being an instructor and learn a different way of doing things. Am I going to leave Bakbakan? No, never. Do I enjoy training with the Dog Brothers? Absolutely. My point is that we are all different, and FMA instructors largely have a different point of view on the same thing. So rather than the "he said, she said" approach, give it a go if you can. Take Mick up on his offer and walk through the door, you might like what you find, you might not, but at least you will know for yourself! Enjoy your journey
Pat, <<HE said, in HIS opinion, HE thinks, A freind of mine knows, I know some one who, etc etc.>> The reason why I don't mention people's names is because when they spoke to me they were giving me their opinions on a subject that I asked them about and they don't expect me bring up their names on message boards. I think it called trust. All I will say is all of the opinions that I have recieved are from top instructors expect for one person who isn't a dan grade yet. <<But yet you never seem to say in YOUR opinion, based on YOUR expeariance. It's makes it look like you have an opinion you dont want to own up to if you get what I mean.>> The reason why i haven't given my opinion is because I have never studied Sayoc. Hopefully one day i will then i will have an opinion. <<Just because one person does not like a particular system or holds no value to it does not mean that the system in question is not valid or has no value it simply means that it is not suited to that particular person and if you really want to know the true value of something for yourself you have to go do it yourself as everyone else's opinion is just that, an opinion based on their own personal likes and dislikes.>> I totally agree. I have never said that Sayoc is no good. <<Now you go on to mention that you know this guy that has left Guro Krishna for what ever reason and then go on to say that another person who is a member here on MAP has also left and can some how shed light on why some people have left Krishna as if to insinuate that there is some terrible reason for this? This is simply gossip spreading.>> If I remember correctly (I could be wrong) there was an argument between Krishna and this member on this message board say 6-8 months ago. I myself have never slated Krishna and have no intention of doing so as I have never met him. Concerning the person i know who left him I don't know the reason but when i see him I will ask him. <<And when you say too expensive, expensive compared to what would be my answer. If it was £1 and you put no value in what some one has to show you then it is too expensive, yet if it was £1000 and they gave you information you beleived money could not buy then in your minds eye it would be cheap as chips.>> I totally agree with you. But is it the best thing that money can buy. Do i have to spend £1000 or so just to find out if it's worth it. Unfortunately I haven't won the lottery so I can't afford to spend money like that. That's why I ask people that IMHO are good and I then ask them their opinion. Is there anything wrong in that? <<I suggest you go along to a Sayoc Seminar and try it out, you may surprise yourself and you may well like what you see, on the other hand you may hate it, either way it will be money well spent because then you will know for sure if it is or it is not something of value to you. But that does not mean it is not a value to some one else.>> When there is a Sayoc seminar that is near where I live and reasonably priced i will go and check it out.. Regards LB
Mick Shore, <<Lb ,I got it wrong im 165 1lbs the heaviest ive been for a while,still fairly average size id say, have we trained silat together in past?-mick>>. No. Why do you ask? LB
LB Several senior people have left Warrior's Eskrima during the past few years and use this forum. These include myself (Peter Lewis), Doug Tucker aka Dee Tee and Bob Melia. Not sure who you are refering to LB and it may well be me! You mention it is a person that you 'know' and that you will ask them next time you see them. If it is me, just drop me an email and we can chat about any questions that you may have. Gumagalang Peter
Hi Peter, I probably didn't make myself clear but there are 2 people that have left Warrior's Escrima that I am aware of. One of these people in on this message board and I don't know him. All i know is what he posted on this board and the argument that he had with Krishna. The other person that has left i do know him but not very well. When I see him next I will ask him why he left. LB
Lb,I wondered because you said people like mick and tuhon sayoc being bigger etc,thought our paths might have passed since i studied silat for over ten years down south ,plus i saw your benitez post and figured you either train it or have an interest .Im sure if you ask guro krishna ,he will point you towards any training groups in your area.I have over twenty years experience in filapino arts and about 15 in malaysian indonesian arts, I also head the jun fan jkd grappling assocciation uk and hold full instructor status under sifu larry hartsell,Ive taught mma and bjj for the last twelve years and have trained with the worlds best in various disciplines over the years around the world.Guro krishna is again highly qualified in a vast range of arts ,but concentrates on filapino systemns,he again has trained with the best ,as has dave joyce in ireland,a sayoc instructor with a very thorough background in south east asian arts.Yes ,we are all sayoc instructors and see the value in what we are doing,but are also not a bunch of numb nuts who cant tell the difference between black and white,all of us are already experienced martial artists before we discovered sayoc.For all the high up instructors that you can tell me who dont like sayoc ,ill match it with those who do like it,as pat said personal choice and prefence,some say tomato some say tomatoe-mick
Mick, I don't know you. Your experience in the martial arts seems impressive but as I have never met you it could all be hogwash. When I was younger i used to get very impressed by the length of time that someone spent studying a martial art but as i got older i realised there is alot of nonsense out there. There are people that have spent years and years studying an art only to get totally beaten up in a street fight and I know people that are just natural born fighters that have never set foot in a Martial Art's dojo etc etc. Because there are lots of charlatans (and I am not saying you are one) out there and I don't have unlimited time or money, I like to ask people that I respect and IMHO are good their opinions on martial arts. From reading a number of different message on different FMA message boards there is approx a 50/50 split between people that think it's good to people who think it's bad. From people that I have spoken to in person the majority think it's OK but nothing special. If I have offended you in any way I apologise as that is not what I intended. Regards LB
I apologise for not getting onto this thread sooner but attended Tuhon Tom's seminar in Warwick that Mick referred to and have been playing catch up since Without wishing to bore anyone, I've trained in a diversity of martial arts and funnily enough like Mick have always tended to shy away from those very arts that relied on strenght. Although I find it interesting that the "top instructors" you reference seem to think that weight, size and strenght are requirements for using a bladed weapon. I have competed in kickboxing, MMA, WEKAF/Padded Stick and Muaythai (at world championship level in WEKAF and Amateur Muaythai). The reason I bring these up is NOT to blow my own trumpet but to demonstrate I have some idea of what I'm talking about. On the complete opposite side of things I have worked the doors and worked in close protection and bodyguarding. I too attended the very first Sayoc Kali seminar that Guro Krishna (who by the way is an excellent instructor, friend and person) organised in 2003 and was SO BLOWN away by what I experienced that I have not missed a seminar by Tuhon Tom since and that includes seminars in France as well as Britain. The more of the system I have experienced the MORE I want to learn and the more it has helped me grow as a person. As someone who strives to constantly update/improve the ability to protect my family and as an individual sometimes involved in the security industry, Sayoc training has given me a fresh and different mindset to the whole area of self protection. My awareness levels and whole approach have been transformed. I have been afforded many opportunities since I began training including the chance to train with some excellent instructors (who are high level in their respective arts), to learn Sayoc Tactical and to assist in the training of US Navy SEALS and Green Berets/SF operatives. Finally, LB, Mick has offered you a chance of some training in Sayoc Kali at a reasonably local level and if you want training at an even higher level, Tuhon Felix Cortes (who is Pamana Tuhon Sayoc's longest and most senior student) will be in Europe soon AND not only does he offer the chance to learn a lot of the empty hand aspects of Sayoc Kali, he is also NOT a big man.
I don't know how your guys have so much free, time....all mine is spent working, training and enjoying family and freinds company. Go and see Mick if you have any interest in Sayoc, I know I will when life allows. Paul www.moifa.co.uk
Fortunately my work and training are one and the same as I spend ten to 12 hours a day teaching and training,my wife works with me at our full time gym . and the kids are at the gym training,weekends are family only,This gives me time during lunch breaks or late at night when im trying to wind down to check forums like this.Guro dave joyce also runs a full time gym.Dave,krishna,and tuhon tom are freinds and part of my character is not letting people criticise or speak about them negatively when they are not there,I will always do my best to defend them in their abscense.Lb aplology accepted,I just wish i could go on a forum thanking my instructors about the training we have done,without it turning into negative threads and usually by people who have never trained in the art themselves.I have instructors who dont like some of the other arts i train ,it dosnt stop me training in what i want to though,I make up my own mind by trying it myself.None of us has unlimited money supply we just find a way to bring in the extra ,be it more hours ,two jobs whatever,if you really want to do something youll find a way.As Dave said,he feels safer learning how better to protect his family,I agree and sleep better knowing i have that knowledge in this day and age
Good repsonse mick, nothing implied with my last reponse, jus that I find the the forums interesting up to a point but then I think its best to get on with things and get first hand experience. Get your own expeirence and the judge for yourself. S**t here I am on the forum again.... Hope we can catch up soon. Paul
Mick, Thanks for your message but I disagree quite strongly with the following that you have written. <<Dave,krishna,and tuhon tom are freinds and part of my character is not letting people criticise or speak about them negatively when they are not there,I will always do my best to defend them in their abscense>> I believe 100% in freedom of speech and that nobody is above that. There are certain things I will not say for decency reasons but I believe i have the right to criticise anybody and be criticised by anybody. Without this there is no democracy. I would hate to live in a society where freedom of speech doesn't exist. Although in all off the posts I have made on this subject I don't believe I have been critical of krishna and Tuhon Tom. Concerning Krishna all I have said is that I am aware of two that have left him. One I know and the other in on this message board. Yesterday I spoke to the person that I know and he spoke highly of Krishna but he felt there were holes in his system therefore he left and is currently doing a system that according to him is more complete and is filling the holes. Concerning Tom all I have said is that he is a big man and from what I have been told by people that have studied Sayoc they feel that it is nothing special ie you can get the same level of expertise from learning a more established FMA style. Does that mean it's no good. No not at all. All that it means is that some people like it and some people don't. In which camp am I in? I don't know because I have never done Sayoc. Once I have I will let you know. Regards LB
Ok, you seem to value these people's opinion highly and you don't want to divulge their identities but spoke with one of them relatively easily, so why not get THEM to come on here (and remain anonymous if they are shy) and let us all know what they find so ordinary about Sayoc Kali. I, for one am intrigued.
Dave Joyce, <<Ok, you seem to value these people's opinion highly and you don't want to divulge their identities but spoke with one of them relatively easily>> I only spoke to this person because ne turned up unexpectly to the place that i was training. Usually i may only see this person once a year if that. Personally I don't think he has much time for message board as he is extremely busy with his day job and training. I value these people's opinion because I have seen them in action in the flesh. Unfortunately I don't know you so I have to trust what you say is true. Concerning Sayoc all i have seen is what's on Youtube and from what I've seen it looks fairly similar to any established FMA. LB
Hey Dave I trust you are well, send my regards to the family. And I agree with you, I get a very suspicious when people (especially those who choose not to tell us who they are) start to state, he said, she said, they said but I am not naming names. It all sounds too much like gossip spreading to me and passing off an opinion with no real reason and at the same time passing the buck on to some nameless individuals. Truth, Trust are words I hear banded about like candy and to tell the truth, if you have no personal expeariance in something the quite frankley what other peoples opinions are, are simply that, and of no real importance and as for trust, well that too is a word that is used all too often out of context, for I beleive if someone has told you something in confidence then I see no need to mention it to anyone else, especially on a forum. But then if someone else has an opinion they do not mind being made public then you should reinforce those comments by telling people who said it, otherwise it is simply classroom gossip. The problem with a minority of FMA'ers is this, they do a style/system that they feel is the best, lets be honest here we all feel the style/system we do is the best otherwise we would not be doing it right? But when some people (a minority) beleive their to be the best, they will see all other styles/systems as being inferior regardless of what you say but they fail to realise that all styles/systems have holes, imperfections, bits that if we wanted to we could pick out bad points, that is the reality of Martial Arts. There is also another group of people (also a minority) who when seeing something from someone else/style/system they do not want to admit that what they have been doing may too have holes and that this other *insert style/system/individuals name here* has just shown them. They so firmly beleive that all others outside their particular group are in some way inferior and that they feel the need to critisize the others in order to qualify what they are doing is superiour to all else around them. They fail to realise that the people they critisize may even in some small way help them understand better and improve the knowledge they all ready have. That is the nature of the beast. I am not saying LB that you are a gossiper, but you can see from the way you are posting it gives people the impression that you are doing just and that in in some way you are trying to critisize another group you know very little about, but I am not saying you are. It just sounds like that dont you think? You too could be (using your own words) 'hog wash', not that I am saying you are. But you could be? The system/style you train is could be 'Nothing Special' not that I am saying it is. But it could be? See where this is going and how it reads, It now reads to you like I am saying that you are all this, yet that is not what I am say is it? My suggestion is you take Mick up on his offer, go up to Doncaster and take him up on his free offer. And by the way I have known both Mick and Dave for many many years, I had the privilage of training them from time to time too and watching them fight, and trust me, these boys are the real deal in no uncertain terms, they have found a style/system that they feel at home with and is improving their knowledge in the direction they wish to go and for that I take my hat off to them. These are two of the second generation of pioneers of the FMA in the UK and Ireland and probably know more about the FMA and how to apply in in reality than you could shake a stick at (pun intended). My adivice is, that before being critical (not that I am saying you are) of another system you know very little about, go learn it first then give us your opinion and ignore what other people think, no matter how first class you think they are. After all the people who's opinions you hold in high regards could also be 'Hog Wash' Not that I am saying they are either. Best regards Pat
Pat, I agree with you. When I replied originally to the thread all I wanted was people's opinion on Sayoc as I have never studied it but I have heard/read alot about it. Some positive and some negative. If I have offended people I apologise that is not what i intended. If I am ever in the Doncaster area then yes I will go and see for myself what Sayoc is like. Regards LB
