Sacrificing Power to Gain Power

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by ladyhawk, Sep 14, 2002.

  1. ladyhawk

    ladyhawk Valued Member

    Sacrificing Power to Gain Power.

    How do you interpret that statement?

    This is one of the key components that I incorporate in my attempt to achieve Chinkuchi.

    Thought anyone?
  2. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I can't really interpret this statement, except in terms that may well upset people. If they do then I wish to state here and now that it is based solely upon my experience and knowledge and not intended to be generalised statements.

    A lot of people believe that to generate power you need to tense up as you hit the contact pointl. If you say that this is the first form of power then yes, this is something you must, and should, sacrifice to achieve greater power through following smoothly through the target with no conscious attempt at power.

    As soon as you manage to discard any conscious, carefully thought through attempt to generate power, it'll come of its own accord.

    That's my interpretation anyway.
  3. Greyghost

    Greyghost Alllll rrigghty then!

    hhhmmmm...tricky one goes.

    It is technique that produces power. When someone first starts in the Martial Arts invariably they want to hit things as hard as possible. Whilst this is great fun and can be rewarding, it soon becomes clear that people cannot sustain that level of power production indefinately. By reducing the power of the technique and concentrating on the technique itself, though initially the strength of the strike/application is less, through practise and proper "form" the application becomes second nature and the production of power becomes easier.

    This is of course, only my humble opinion.
  4. ladyhawk

    ladyhawk Valued Member

    OK, here's my thoughts on it.

    Instead of trying to perform a technique (ie. a punch) as hard and fast as
    possible, step it down so that you feel the weight in the hand (like a tug).
    If you are going full power, you may be using more muscle than is necessary.

    The following is quoted from a friend because I like the way he explained it.

    Think of driving a nail with a hammer...but instead of using force, use a
    relaxed swing and the hammer's weight.

    Thoughts or opinions anyone?
  5. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Instead of concentrating on hitting hard, which is important, its more important to train for speed and accuracy. We spend more time training with the focus pads than the punch bag. Training with fast combinations instead of the big strike.

    I’ve known a few people to injury their hands in fights, one person even breaking four knuckles! This was through hitting too hard to the wrong place. Many boxing style fighters will bob and weave making there head a difficult target to hit, often causing punches to hit their forehead which is the hardest bone in the body. Much stronger than the relatively fragile hand. A lot of military training teaches against punching because a damaged hand will make it difficult to operate weapons and equipment. They instead teach striking with kicks, knees and elbows.

    I’m not saying don’t punch, but instead of relying on your one devastating blow, use some fast combinations to hit some vulnerable targets.
  6. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Another important thing is to get your bodyweight behind the technique, and when you're trying to hit a target your body tenses up and makes the torque and shift required much harder, and weaker. Basically relaxation, which lowers the power you gain from sheer muscular strength, leads to better mechanics which in turn generate more power.

    I'm not sure about the hammer and nail comparison though, if you just use the hammer's weight then you'll need more hits with the hammer, whereas if you put your full weight into the swing then the nail may well go in after one shot, and if you miss then they'll probably be a hole in the plaster anyway.
  7. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    That is the best way to throw a hard punch CKD. Difficult to keep your muscles relaxed in a real fight though, I’ve always found a lot of my technique has gone out of the window. This is why I believe its important to teach people the different types of punches. Jabs, hooks, cross, faints and uppercuts etc. The way you use your body weight will be different in all of these. The jab for example might be generated with the arm alone.

    Has anybody learnt boxing type techniques? Do you think it compliments the classical martial arts?
  8. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Actually a jab is not much faster, and much less powerful than a properly executed punch.

    The way that you use your bodyweight should be at least similar for all punches, essentially you're trying to dump as much momentum as possible into your target, and this is a case where there are right and wrong answers, albeit of varying degrees.
  9. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    A well executed jab will be much less powerful, but should be harder to stop. Just flicked out from your front hand, without any telegraphing from pulling your fist back or moving your body. It could still be powerful enough to bust somebody’s nose, or maybe just used as a distraction to set up a more powerful punch.

    What do people think?
  10. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    It does leave you open though, and if you've got a good punch anyway then you'll gain very little extra speed, the lack of telegraphing is irrelevant, since with a powerful punch executed well the only telegraph is when your arm starts moving, same as with a jab, your whole body should move so close to simultaneously as makes no odds.

    I can understand why people might use jabs, but I find that if anything they're slower than an actual punch. This may just be me and the people I know however.
  11. Tseek Choi

    Tseek Choi Banned Banned

    It is the mind that produces power from the accumulation and focusing of Chi.
    Technique is only the vehicle that delivers the power.
    External physical strength can be a hinderance to the development of real jing (power), and fa jing (explosive power) is severally restrained by the use of excessive muscular strength.
    This being the case the statement "sacrificing power to gain power" would mean training the body and mind to let go of the physical strength that we have developed through conventional training, and instead train the Chi.

  12. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Tseek Choi, it sounds like I train in a very similar way to you. I train in traditional Kung Fu, where its believed the power for punching comes from our Chi. Sometimes I feel very disillusioned with the whole belief. This is because I have spent sometime training with boxers, and these people have been the better punchers, faster and stronger. And also better conditioned for a lengthy fight. I know boxing has many weaknesses, but it does have good punching techniques. I recently watched a documentary (discovery channel I think) it has some highly ranked Karate people and boxers. It wasn’t comparing fighting skill, just punching power. I was disappointed to see how much more power the boxers had! Hence the incorporation of boxing techniques into my arsenal. And from my experience it appears to be a good decision.
  13. ladyhawk

    ladyhawk Valued Member

    Hey Colin,
    You understand where I'm going with this.
    Bringing balance, focus, breath, intent and proper technique into
    harmony to deliver my internal energy/chi with my strike.
    Did you happen to read my post on Chinkuchi?
    I apologize for not replying to your question on training methods.
    I'm at a loss for the proper words to explain.
    If you are familiar with Sanchin Kata, that is a good place to start.
  14. morphus

    morphus Doobrey

    I've been observing this thread not knowing quite where I stand, so i'll just answer some questions asked earlier.
    In CKD we use more of a boxing type punch - than a .....lets say karate/martial arts punch - utilizing body shift and momentum, when speeded up there is no telegraph; so technique + speed = explosive power.
    We then use the same principle for all techniques kicking,striking,elbows,knees etc.
    The CKD front punch which is usually the jabbing tool in boxing uses that very principle; like a "ball and chain" you wip/bodymechanics - the chain/arm - hitting the target with the ball/fist!!
    As for the jab, there isn't one in CKD unless you count a thrown fake/distraction which you prob' could count.
    As for sacrificing power to gain power everyone seems (more or less) in agreement - 'my' anology might be - being relaxed throughout a confrontation hence sacrifice of power; so gaining mind/brain power to think/act quicker!

    Something easier said than done.:Alien:
  15. ladyhawk

    ladyhawk Valued Member

    I think we have quicker reflexes when we are relaxed because we are not fighting against our own muscle tension.
  16. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    I'm going to respond to this in a seperate thread, its a pretty big issue with lots of factors involved.
  17. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    My interpretation would be pretty similar to GG's. You initially create power through constantly tensing but you have stop doing this because

    a) You can't maintain that level of exertion for long.

    b) It's slower

    c) It's not actually as powerful as a relaxed technique

    Alot of the time when your tense your muscles are actually fighting against each other slowing you down and wasting power. Correct technique, as in punching, requires you to be tense only on the point of contact.

    So once you've descovered all this and are trying to learn to do it properly, there is going to be a perios of time when you seem weaker because you'll keep arsing it until on day.... BAM!

  18. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Sorry makes no sence to me!

    I have seen and listened to people on this subject but to my simple mind it makes little sence.

    The only way I make a punch more effective is the location it hits -still if I put more power into it then it will do more damage!

    Simple science!

  19. khafra

    khafra New Member

    I wish Discovery Channel had done high level Tai Chi practitioners along with the karate and boxing. I've read some articles that compare Western Boxing more closely to Internal styles than External, and this might account for some of the power, as well as perhaps some relaxation. I'm sure boxers try to relax as much as they can, they know that every bit of energy they save is going to be useful at least by round 8-12.

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