Rogue One (spoiler free)

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Travess, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Isn't that emotional devotion a result of the technical level? I mean, I think arguing that Citizen Kane is a more nuanced and complex film is viable, but every moment of a film was deliberately chosen and orchestrated by someone. I don't think the success was an accident I guess.

    I was thinking of how cool it would have been if this actually was a Saving Private Ryan type movie, with emotional stakes and characters I cared about.

    Sometimes though, this works. For example:


    No character needed! :p
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    wouldn't put either anywhere near my top 100 films.

    but that's not saying i don't enjoy myself when watching anh and esb. i enjoy myself tremendously when i watch caddyshack too. that certainly struck a chord in young giovanni.

    maybe we need to start a top 100 films thread? or at least, top ten. lol
  3. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I think that all depends on what metric you're using ;)

    That would be interesting. As long as people post their metric. :]
  4. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    hilariously, when going through the site and doing a search on "greatest movies" to decide if i should start a new thread, we had a top ten thread some years back. one, i love quoting myself; two, i love reliving what i was thinking that day.


  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No, I think that naiveté can produce art that resonates with a wider audience than a more considered and academic approach in some cases. If it were purely a technical endeavour, then each of George Lucas' films would be more popular than the last.

    I think the original Star Wars movie was a happy accident that was saved by the editor. The quality of sci-fi concept artists was also at an all-time high, and of course Industrial Light And Magic provided visuals that surpassed pretty much everything except 2001.

    Yeah, I was thinking more Guns of Navarone/Bridge On the River Kwai kind of vibe, but yeah, anything with characters I had a bit of time to get to know, who showed but didn't tell, and who's motivation changed at some point. Any kind of character arc, really.

    Ha! Yeah, but imagine if that guy was the lead character!
  6. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I mean, I don't think it was solely Lucas' technical achievement. Actually, the less Lucas has to do with a movie, the better, it seems. I think there's a lot of luck in getting a movie to come together, but at the end of the day all of the elements that make it function are discrete, technical, and reproducible efforts on the part of people who made the movie.

    I mean... even 2001. You remember them monkey suits they wear at the beginning?

    Y'know, I haven't seen those? I feel you though. I was thinking "Star Wars: The Dirty Dozen" initially and that could have been a great flick. Hell, make it "Mission Impossible IN SPACE." There's so many directions you could have taken this basic premise and they just failed at all of them because it was miserable and joyless.

    I'd watch that movie, lol, but you're right; reason that MMFR is going to be a classic film that people watch in 30 years and not one they just put down by the wayside is its nuts and bolts approach to the craft of story.

    I just don't understand why this is so hard for Hollywood to get right.
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think that definitely applies to Empire, because they had to get a team together who could take the lucky formula and improve on it, but I'm not sure about Star Wars. Nobody thought it was going to be a hit.

    Oh god, yeah. I meant the space stuff! The Blue Danube scene still looks incredible to me.

    In terms of an industry, I think they are getting it right, in that they're making a shed ton of money.

    Soulless, lowest common denominator dreck is what you get when individuals aren't allowed to follow a creative vision from start to finish. The kind of soulless, lowest common denominator dreck that gets churned out by committee does sell though.

    Same with music really; if you take chances on artistic vision then you have a lot of misses that have to be recouped by a couple of big hits.
  8. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    The script still strikes me as perfect. Again, not complex, not nuanced, but it is absolutely and elegantly functional. The art direction is original and characterizing (think about what the Rebel Corvette and the Star Destroyer have to say about the Empire and Rebels, or what the Millennium Falcon says about Han). Every character has clear motivation and emotions with every scene. The film takes us on an emotional rollercoaster - Obi Wan's death still fills me with pathos and wonder. Agreed that the editor in this case was an incredible asset.

    True stroy.

    I dunno, I'd give more credit to the guys behind Rogue One. I feel like they really wanted to make a good movie, they just screwed the pooch when it came to basic story structure. With the right editor it could have really worked. You look at the movies that inspired this kind of manic quest for a franchise (I'd say Harry Potter and the Marvel movies primarily) and you can see that's the thing they get consistently right.

    The soulless decision making seems to attempt to mimic those creative successes rather than simply churn out something formulaic; there were some brave decisions made in Rogue One, they just didn't really pan out.
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It was a serviceable script, but it could still have turned into a terrible movie. The dialogue isn't great, Lucas isn't known for good dialogue, and I think you have to give credit to both the actors and the editing for making that work.

    One thing that struck me about R1 was the editing for the robot's wisecracks (I can't remember what that robot is called) and how they got the timing all wrong. His jokes would look fine on the page, and I don't think the delivery was off, but the timing just made them fall flat for me.

    Sure, I don't think that anyone involved wanted to make a "meh" film, but look at how many writers they went through, and how much they were radically changing the movie as they went along. Also, all the changes I've read about were entered around locations and big set pieces, I've not read about any changes where they were pivoting around the characters' motivations. It's all about "hey, this would look really cool, how can we fit this in?".

    At the end of the day, big studio pictures are a business. They are a means for investors to make a return. There are good reasons why some director's avoid Hollywood, even after having success with big studio movies.
  10. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Yup, no doubt - I just think that the actors and editors are part of the 'technical' aspects of making a film emotionally resonate.

    I didn't read much about the making of the film! You have any links about it? Sounds fascinatingly horrific.

    I hear you; it just seems like the really notable, breakout hits that generate oodles of money AND pave the way for a franchise of films rely upon fairly standard, robust story telling. Iron Man was a really solid script, same with Avengers, Batman Begins, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. The missteps seem to occur when the studio starts trying to intervene in the creative process; Fantastic Four, Suicide Squad, Rogue One, etc. It's like there's some basic disconnect about what makes a film work.
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, you got me there. I agree :)

    It's mainly tidbits that popped up on my phone's news app or youtube, I don't go around looking for it, but this kind of thing:

    Yeah, but films like Suicide Squad and Transformers do great in the box office worldwide.

    I get you, but I'm not sure that film quality and profit are measured on the same axis.
  12. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Junk food also sells great. And in the USA, the #1 beer is the thoroughly-disgusting Budweisser. :confused: :dunno: :confused: Yep, marketing/business guys can sell anything. Profit and quality are definitely not measured on the same axis. :mad:
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Always nice to talk to Americans who appreciate good beer :)
  14. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    it's really changed here. definitely since i started drinking in the 80's, but the last couple of decades the beer scene has gotten better and better. yay beer!
  15. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter


    I think the uhhhh gearing of films to a worldwide audience actually has made them worse. Terminator Genesys and Independence Day 2 both strike me as films with strange cultural content that all of a sudden makes sense when you approach it from the "how would this translate" angle. On the other hand, movies like Kung Fu Panda really benefit from an international consideration.
  16. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I Redboxed it a couple nights ago, and ... I'll just quote you because you substantially said what I would say. Boiled down to two sentences my reaction to the movie was, "This is boring because I don't feel anything at all about any of these characters. I know that I'm supposed to, but I don't." :dunno:
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I hate you all....more so than usual I mean
  18. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I think someone should change Hannibal's tag line to "I love you all." :heart:

    If only we knew someone who had access. :D
  19. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Someone described Rogue One as the ultimate fan film, and it made a lot of sense why some folks love it so much and others are so... meh about it.
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I clapped because I know Star Wars!

    AT-ST! AT-ST!


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