Before you close this thread, this is thread have nothing to do with the katana. But the thread about reverse grip, or reverse edge wanted me to just post some basic info of blades with reversed edge (or held the "wrong" way) The last first: We have evidence that blades as short as the underarm were used in the "icepick" grip in medieval europe, and I hold it for very probable that any weapons bladed weapons around 35 cm range were used like this. Swords, on the other hand is a little different, as the blade becomes too long to make the "Icepick"-techniques stick. When swords had to be used in close play, they were often used in "halfswording" techniques. Here are some pictures of germanic skramasaxes, "daggers" that were between 25 and 45 cm long (As fit in this thread, this dagger-type allso often had the edge on the "wrong" side): http://www.lfchosting.com/digitalcanoe/knife/pictures/paulchen/images/scramasax.jpg http://www.revesdacier.com/catalog/images/scramasax.jpg Moving to weapons with the egde on the "wrong side": -apart from the skramasax, I know of two other weapons, both from ancient europe: Here's the dacian falx, a cruel weapon that alledgedly could pierce the armor worn by the Roman Legionares: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/falxcut1.jpg http://members.aol.com/annoratheaxe/falx1.jpg another variation of this weapon is not as curved(often straight) and more slender, often referred to as a rhomphaia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d1/Rhomphaia.jpg http://forums.swordforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22931&d=1083358271 The second weapontype i Know of are the Khopesh'es (axe-swords from middle east, often portrayed with pharaos from egypt:http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/images/deepeeka-khopesh.jpg
Actually one of the Kentai Ichi no Kata from Tsutsumi Hozan ryu uses the tachi held in an inverted manner, but certainly not in a cutting fashion like the figure eights koyo described in the previous thread. The sword is held behind tori's back, concealing the weapons length up his arm and behind his shoulders. When a cut is made, uke's elbow is intercepted with tori's hand while the other strikes with the tsuka. From their uke's neck is held with the sword ala kataha jime. No cutting is involved, just 'grappling with the sword' if there ever was any. This is the only methodof holding the sword this way that I've ever seen. (well, legit stuff anyway....)
Found this pic. Not a reversed blade but a reversed grip like archie spoke of. I was holding the bokken at my left hip as though in a scabbard when Chris attacked. Hito emi inside the attack and lock the elbow and hip to pin or throw. regards koyo whatever works
Could you fins some links to pictures? -cool reverse-grip, koyo, I don't think I've come across any european manuals that shows a weapon of that lenght used like that.. halfswording seems to replace that grip in all situations
I do not think it is a technique for the sword. It just happened that way that time. It is usually applied with a jo. the throw applied with the jo. regards koyo
I know it's origin and have examples from classical schools. It's a lovely technique and is very effective.
as was stated in the other thread, we (kuk sool) use a reverse sword technique, if you are interested i will try and find some pics/vids and post them for you.
I just remembered a WMA technique with reversed grip, but not on your own blade, but on your opponents blade. If you're in a close crossada(crossing of swords), and if the oppertunety arises, you may twist the opponents sword upside down, and then grip it "upside-down", as it slips out of the opponents fingers. This throw you've shown... could you talk me through it, so I can see if anything similar is done in WMA? and matt; I'm interrested in your technique as well
If applied by a jo when the opponent attempts to raise his sword you thrust between his arms to strike the face your left hand is forward on the jo. Having stunned him you release the rear hand (right) and strike high on his chest with the jo horizontal. You enter to the side and trap his wrist with the right hand and lever the jo over his elbow and under his left hip. In the photo using the sword this is just about to be applied. By thrusting your hip into the front kuzushi (weakpoint of his balance) you can either pin him forcefully or throw him. Hope this is clear enough) The sword is more difficult because you must avoid his strike and enter to the side.You are not in a fighting kamae you are holding the sword in your left hand and can only strike hard against his chest and trap his hand with your right hand the leverage is the same as with the jo. However it takes composure and nerve to enter swiftly to the side as he cuts.And your timing MUST be just right. regards Here you can see the entry alongside and the strike to the chest. When I pressure the elbow the tip of the sword shall lock his left hip.I have heard a few "tonks" when someone got the timing wrong thankfully it's usually on the shoulder.
In Kuk Sool we have five basic cuts with the inverted grip 1. Downward cut, both hands are used, sword 90 degrees to formarms. 2. Upward cut, one handed, sword braced on forearm 3. Inside horizontal cut, one handed, sword braced on forearm 4. Inside or Outside horizontal cut, two handed, sword 90 degrees to forearms 5. Outside horizontal cut, one handed, sword 90 degrees to forearm We also use slicing, i.e. drawing the blade across the surface of the target. This technique is also used after the inside horizontal cut. The icepick poke is also used. This technique originated as a form of close quarters combat. I am no history buff but it makes a lot of sense to me. For instance I can get much closer to a wall and perform an inverted horizontal cut without clipping the wall. On the same note I can perform downward cuts in my garage, whereas with normal grip I clip the ceiling. We also like to kick while holding the sword in this grip, particularly from a bind.
Koyo, I think I see it before me. I cannot remember this done in any of the WMA-systems I've seen. Allthough strikes to the face is common (even with the pommel, if the crossada is very high, and there is an opening between his arms, one can give way with the blade, swing the pommel forewards, and smack the pommel into his mouth/nose). When that close to the opponent, I guess we/the manuals resorts to head-throws or hip throws, or even scissors around the neck in halfswording, but not with the technique you described. I have no doubt it works, though KSW: I guess draw-cuts are very easy to obtain with the inverted grip you describe, but the range is allso limited, compared to the normal grip. In which situations is it advised to use the cuts you describe? I imagine beeing thrown to the floor, lying on my back with an opponent on top of me, would be one situation where an inverted grip would be preferable. Perhaps allso If I was up against a longer weapon like -say -a spear, and I knew I had to be very close?
As I understand it, two conditions need to hold. First, you must get in close and remain close. Second, there must be limited room for manuverability. An open field with inverted grip vs. normal grip would be a worst case scenario. A narrow short hallway would be a good case. I am told this technique was used by palace guards. I would like to learn more of the history of this though. Why didn't they just have a second shorter weapon? I'm afraid I have far more questions than answers on how this technique was actually used in combat. I have studied the forms I have been taught and put together a sparring routine based on them. But that is my interpretation of the forms.
Actually it is looked upon as a "panic" technique where you are attacked before you can bring the sword into play, it may even be still in the scabbard.It reflects badly on you because you have allowed the attacker to sieze the initiative. regards koyo
I would agree with you, becuase this makes much sense, but the problem I am faced with is that the motions in our forms do not support this conclusion. This is particularly true of our double sword form. In the last third of the form both swords are held in the inverted grip.
I can only speak from japanese sword.Since your sword art is not japanese I cannot comment other than to say if it is included in your forms, it is there for a reason. My posting is strictly from aiki ken in this instance.I would be most interested in a video or photos. Have you seen the eastern western sword comparison thread. I learned a great deal from the weatern swordsmen there. regards koyo
Another thing I've been told about our reverse sword techniques is that they use less energy, making them more suitable for the end of a long day of battle, when the swordsman is weary. From that perspective, perhaps it is a desperation move?
I have been studying that thread. It is very good. Hopefully, I will get a chance to post something worthy on it soon. Here is a video of part of the inverted sword form. The guy in the silver messed up in the middle. The video quality is bad and it is from far away, but it is the best I could find. Master Sung Jin Suh is the one to watch on this form, but I couldn't find a video of him doing it. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41rvwcyZ0MY]Inverted swrod[/ame]
Thanks for the clip. Coming from japanese sytem I found that the use of the sword here more closely mirred our jo techniques. I could see the defence of the centreline during attacks. Excellent stuff. regards koyo
