Religious experience.

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Kframe, Sep 26, 2016.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    "The key difference between Zen Buddhism and Stoicism seems to be whether rationalization or the intellect is embraced or rejected. A student of Zen will study koans with the objective of eventually realizing that trying to rationalize an intellectual answer is futile. Conversely, a student of Stoicism will study logic to fine-tune his intellect."

    Id say stoicism is anti religious philosophy, wereas zen is a religious path to being agnostic.
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm not a student of Zen, but from techniques that I understand are similar to some Zen practices, it is not the "neitherness" of the "that thing/not that thing" meditations that are important, but the mental processes that occur while trying to conceive of "that thing/not that thing", as in koans, for example.

    I guess that in some practices this has become more dogmatic, as all mysticism is wont to do, but I'd bet that it was the effect, and not the practice itself, that was originally important, in Zen more than most others.
     
  3. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Interesting. Koans aren't really part of Soto Zen, but even if we go with Rinzai, I'm not sure that's what the koans are for. Why do you think that's what the koans are for?
     
  4. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    That sounds like what I had David, that Hypnogagic hallucination. At that time, I was not getting very much sleep. My insomnia was horrible. Right now, I average 6-7 hours of sleep a night. I try to get to bed by 11pm, but 1145 happens most often, with a wake up of 630am. I really need to get to bed a bit earlier, say 10pm. Its not that I cant sleep, its that I get caught up writing, and reading while listening to music.

    Its not that I want to replace one religion with another. I truly believe in a higher power, deity. It's just I need to find the outlet that feels right. All I know is that I am not inspired were I am. It just doesn't feel right.

    And to answer your question, I have not read Dune, but saw the movie, along time ago. I need to read the books. I like that quote though.

    Bozza, I will hit you up later about the Zen meditation. I want to do some reading on my own, so that way I can have proper questions and what not.

    You guys are right, that I am going through a bit of depression. However, restarting my work outs at the gym, gaining strength and loosing weight have started to make me feel alittle better. Soon as I can get back into a proper martial art, I will be golden.

    I just wish I could figure a way to get my wife into counseling with me. We argue about this all the time, and she says she is happy with the way things are. That I am the only one with a problem. Sigh..

    Though I loath to do a professional shrink. That is the kind of thing that goes on your record and I don't need potential employers or other people thinking I am some kind of crazy loon.
     
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    If you were in the UK I'd suggest the Quakers, if we were talking Christian churches. Maybe aaradia's suggestion of one of the Unitarian churches might be good to check out?

    Good stuff :)

    Keeping in mind that I only have half the story, and she might look on things differently, it is a bit worrying that she wouldn't think of your problems as her problems.

    Psychiatry is expensive and not particularly evidence-based. If you were to seek professional help, I think a psychologist would be a better bet. Looking for CBT and/or mindfulness groups/workshops could also be a good option, and you could probably do that without a doctor's referral. Surely not everyone who goes to a shrink has that on record for employers to see?
     
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    It was a quote from a website, although I belive koans werent to be analysed logically, but I do know little about actual zen practise.

    What do you think koans are for?
     
  7. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Probably for teaching meditation.
     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Ok, but to what ends ?

    I think their goals and where they head are very similar indeed in terms of spirituality. And despite everything that can be discussed it's spirituality that is at the heart of every religion.

    that passage is from Wiki.

    Zen and Stoicism share something very big in common. Which is the idea that "all is one". Basically Pantheism. They go about it pretty differently and you have provided a description.

    I think you saying that it is "anti religious" is wrong though, it's just anti Monotheism.
    That's just probably closer to what you would like it to be. Much like so many people like to think of Buddhism and Zen as atheist. They are not they are Pantheist belief systems in the final analysis and so is Stoicism.

    Don't think so, then I suggest you read into it a bit more:

    Substituting the word God for Nature is all very well, but if the feeling towards it is essentially the same well in the end; Divinity is divinity and that's how they saw the Universe.

    Further the practices are not that different to other esoteric, religious and spiritual schools both Eastern and Western.




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  9. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Zen is the branch of Budhism that is about "sudden enlightenment".

    I think Deadpool was hinting along the right track, in that the intellect is in the way of "sudden enlightenment". Zen wants it to hit you in the face with a bang. "Shattering" the intellect/logic is part of that; and that's in large part I think the use of koans grew from. What that means practically is seeing it's limitations and where it leaves off and "Wordless Nature" begins.. Logic being inherent in language making sense, koans put you up against that wall where logic runs out and doesn't provide any answers. Where Logic has no use other things come into play.

    If That which can be spoken is not the true.. So what place the intellect ?

    Exactly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Just like most other mystic traditions, it is about tearing down duality and achieving single-pointed consciousness. Then deconstructing the ego with those practices and subsequent reflections upon them.

    Gods just get in the way of the process and serve as a distraction. I remember a line I liked from a Taoist in a novel, who said that gods and demons were just for the peasants and merchants, people who did't have the time or interest to explore themselves and wanted some simple fairy tales to live by.

    Regarding your post on Stoicism, I don't know much about it but isn't there a big difference between the original Stoics and Christian Neostoicism?
     
  11. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Or maybe one meditates on the koans to learn to meditate. As I said, koans are not part of the Soto Zen path. They're a Rinzai thing. Koans not really part of Chan, either. In Chan, practitioners usually get just one "koan" to use as a meditation aid, rather than the succession of koans that a person gets in Rinzai.
     
  12. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Re stoicism, I'm reading a mixture philosophy including greek, and so far, to me stoicism (the philosophy) seems to have the start of mondern day scientific enlightenment within it, its not something I try to ape as a religion (as god doesnt exist), but I do think some of the practises could be intellectually positive.

    I really dont understand the urge to worship things. And belive in things that cant be seen, or even understood fully.

    Why religion?
     
  14. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Fair enough. I was thinking to myself in terms of the normal "curriculum," if that's the right word, e.g. "Emphasizing daily life practice as zazen, Soto Zen centers generally do not work with a set koan curriculum and method, ...."
    http://www.dharmanet.org/lczen.htm

    Or this guy at the bottom of the page saying that koans are used as liturgy and discussion topics in Soto, not as what we think of as "koans."
    http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2009/02/bg-109-koan-training-and-the-different-styles-of-zen/

    I used to know one of the priests at the Soto Mission in Los Angeles. Koans weren't their thing. :dunno:

    Whatever. Were we to get hung up on who is or is not doing true "Soto Zen" we'd totally miss the point of Zen! :D


    Yes. For good or for bad, the Soto curriculum changed later in time.
     
  15. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    To start I'd just like to plug this video (warning though, it does have a curse in it, I have previously contacted mods and they have said that I could post it in another thread as long as I included a warning!):

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk"]Science Saved My Soul. - YouTube[/ame]

    Science has led us to things that can't be seen or understood fully (i.e. dark matter, anything before the big bang, etc.). We have very good reasons for believing in them, whereas, I think we'd agree, the religious have very little reason and hardly any good reason for believing what they believe.

    But what's remarkable is how much more wondrous, beautiful, gigantic, and complex reality is compared to what the religious believed. What we've discovered deserves something more than worship, some kind of protective reverence.

    Think about how much more miraculous even the most minor insect is when you found out that it happened without anyone helping at all, just through billions of years of water droplets dripping onto a stalactite.

    http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/biodiversity/elements_of_biodiversity/extinction_crisis/

    GODDAMMIT YOU GUYS
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I agree wholeheartedly.

    *ps I think you may of deleted a portion of your post by accident as the stalictite / insect thing doesnt make sense?
     
  17. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    I used to go to a Sanbo Kyodan zendo, it's often considered a half way point between Soto and Rinzai, they studied koans there (not me though). And as it's "a little bit Soto, a little bit Rinzai"´, and I guess, and was told, they placed more emphasis on them than Soto and less than Rinzai...as you'd expect.

    The Soto places I have been and the practitioners there are all different; some do koans, some don't, some do if you ask for them.

    I've never been to Rinzai place or know anyone who practices it, but from what I have read it's way more structured and formal when it comes to koans.

    Well, one thing that attracted me to Zen was the whole "just get on with it..." attitude (Or should that be "Just get on with it....but don't") and I feel Soto takes that a little further in some ways than Rinzai, but that's just my own interpretation.
     
  18. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Philo.

    That video got me thinking, you're a clever science chap and it's a simple question...so if the universe is going to be around for another 30 billion years (Yikes!), how long has it already been around for? 6,000 years the same as Earth or a bit longer?
     
  19. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Yeah, I was scratching my head at that too.

    I'm going to start dripping water everywhere to start my race of world consuming insects now :p
     
  20. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I guess with the water droplet thing, all of life is just energy spinning down until it becomes heat. It's a very complicated version of water falling to the lowest point. We marvel at things like cave systems because it becomes very easy to visualize the time needed to create the stalactites and stalagmites, but in reality every grasshopper should fill us with even greater amazement at the amount of time it took.

    Also I sometimes think about Prometheus and doing genetic work and how life is basically just a series of water droplets with differing solutions separated into different chambers.

    [​IMG]
     

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