Hey everyone. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and I also train in Karate. I've been wondering, how do you reconcile western religious beliefs with the elements of Taoism and Buddhism that you so frequently find in the martial arts? Do the different belief systems clash? Or is there a happy medium? Any thoughts or comments welcome.
I made a thread asking something similar on a christian message board.. There are some who think training to fight is a bad thing in itself, then you get people who follow Mr Robertson and think internal power is inhaling demon spirit. I've not studied Taoism or Buddhism to a deep level but from what I've read so far there isn't anything that really clashes. Taoism goes for an impersonal force that permeates everything. Only difference with that is God is a personified force. But I find most of the ideas of Buddhism, such as right action, right thought, ... I forget the rest :$ sit in quite neatly with christian doctrine. It's all about bettering yourself and being better to others. I may be ignorant or narrowminded for saying this but I honestly can't see anything that would clash enough for a religious person to abhor it. Anyone who does so in my eyes has their mind made up beforehand. (for the record I'm an ex-Baptist but try to live up to ideas put forward in buddhism)
martial arts have no religious elements. the people that made them and practiced them in their countries of origins were religious, and had the values of their religions imprinted into their societies (similar to how christianity has influenced the western world), giving the impression that martial arts have religious overtones. martial arts are just methods of hurting people and of developing the skills necessary to do it correctly.
As the Tao Te Ching says, "No fight, no blame." In asking for reconciliation you're assuming that there's some inherent conflict. If you're experiencing conflict, know that it exists only in your mind. If someone else is telling you there's conflict, know that it exists only in their mind. Practice your martial art, and be a good person. Simple. .
This same question is one to examine why would Buddhist monks of the Ch'an study (per ex Shaolin) ever take upon a fighting method? I have discussed this with people of many different relgious faiths. It boils down to violence, and the action of. Although I know alot of people from various religious faiths whom are police officers, hunters, military, etc.
I wasn't aware there was a conflict, I personally don't believe in Christian pacifism, Jesus Christ used violence and was a pretty intimidating individual by several counts in the bible. I don't think being able to use violence is self-defense and beingintentionally violent to push an agenda are the same things. There was something on the discovery channel about military strategy and so on. Anyway, one of the interesting things about it, in reference to the Shaolin matter, was that exception leaders, soldiers & generals whose knowledge was valuable but they had disobeied their rulers were some times ordered to become monks in isolated monostaries to "keep them on the back burner" so to speak. As such a variant of less then passive, ideology was developed and it became and area of study among the former soldiers in such monostaries attracting others to the "warrior monk" ideology. In fact according the DC, many of these "warrior monks" being disposed soldiers and officers would practice their military training as "exercise forms" & disguise their discussion of strategy as "philosophy." Take the conventional Eastern Military Stand of 5-tactics or 5-strategies & compare it to the idea of 5-animals kung-fu... I thought it was interesting and worth mentioning. Its my stand that mankind has a way to pervert any idea to suit themselves.
I follow Western religious beliefs, namely Norse paganism. Western, not Christian. And I train MA. Needless to say, no conflict there. The ancient Norse had no problem with asskicking, and their spiritual beliefs were rather on the mystical side, sharing at least one deity with Vedic Hinduism: Thor = Indra. So it's not an issue for me. If I were a Christian, no biggie either. Remeber the code of Chivalry, which is essentially a code of conduct for knights (who were pretty badass martial artists, AND Catholics). No apparent conflict between Christianity and judiciously applied violence there... in fact it's a fusion of Christianity and Germanic tribal martial culture. It's entirely possible to follow Buddhist teachings while being a Christian, at least that's what I'm told. Don't the Christians say that Jesus came to take your soul, not your brain? Use your gods-given mind and work out your salvation like Paul said in one of his letters. Test everything. Remember that the Church is not God, and cannot come between you and the Divine unless you wish it to. Best regards, -Mark
Twice strong is he who has his battle just. Thrice strong is he who gets his blow in furst. (scottish spelling)
If I were a Christian, no biggie either. Remeber the code of Chivalry, which is essentially a code of conduct for knights (who were pretty badass martial artists, AND Catholics). No apparent conflict between Christianity and judiciously applied violence there... in fact it's a fusion of Christianity and Germanic tribal martial culture. -Mark[/QUOTE] That's an interesting point, but what I meant was do the actual belief systems that are inherent in some styles of martial arts, such as Kung Fu and Aikido, clash with western religion, especally christianity?
^ one example, sees temple being used as market, goes berserk on some priest ass. Read through the bible a couple times violence is pretty evident God, Jesus, and their followers.
Okay, fair enough. Jesus did throw the moneylenders out of the temple. But, it's the only time he gets violent, and it's only because they are defiling His Father's house. Also, nowhere in the Acts of the Apostles do they get violent....Go figure.
Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Go figure. .
My first comment is that I agree with Fish... religion is not an inherent part of martial arts. Aikido is known as a "religious martial arts" for example, simply because Ueshiba was religious. Secondly, I will admit that some Christians have the unfortunate impression that martial arts are "pagan" because of the eastern lore that often surrounds them in popular culture. Also, as previous posters mentioned, some attempt to claim that violence of any kind is wrong... however as also mentioned, this is easily debunked by the words and actions of Jesus himself. I myself initially always had an attraction to the arts, but also had the impression that they were "pagan". When I actually started looking into them, visiting schools, talking to people, etc. I discovered this was by no means the case. There are certain customs I prefer not to take part in, that are still commonly observed in dojos today. In my school I don't have to worry about these, because the Sensei is Christian as well -with other teachers, I have respectfully asked to be allowed to not participate in this part of class. One Karate teacher was slightly offended, upset that I would "insinuate there is something non-Christian about her class". On the other hand, the subject came up with a visiting Aikido teacher, and he said "If you were in my dojo and explained this to me, I would respect your beliefs. That is part of what Aikido means to me." Other people don't share my opinions on certain beliefs and practices, and this is their right.[1] I merely ask that they respect my choice to abstain. Everyone is different... some are very gracious, others will be insistent. In the latter case, I guess I'd just find somewhere else to train. Bruce_Lee93: check out Luke 22:36 "... and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one". What do you think he expected them to do with those swords? There are plenty other verses as well along the same line. [1]I've heard some folks say "you can't expect to pick and choose what parts of class you want to take and leave!!" However, I would argue that what I choose not to take part in are non-essential trappings... I do not refuse to spar, to roll, etc. I've heard of folks who preferred not to grade... they didn't really see the need for a colored belt. If this can be respected, I see no difference in what I ask.
Good post Mark. I agree with what much of what you said, there's merely a little point I'd like to make regarding the quoted sentence. The principles of "don't hurt each other", etc. (to put it simply) are obviously part of Christianity as well. However there's quite a difference in the more "spiritual" beliefs, such as afterlife, reincarnation, etc.
I don't violence is outlawed by the christian faith; least not where I stand but, I think needless violence is outlawed. Personally I think almost every religion agrees on principles of moral frame work & for me thats enough. Sure you have those odd ball "Satanist" & who give mainstream Satanists a bad name but thats an extreme. I tend to believe that a personals "spitiual beliefs" are a personal matter.
Yeah, you kinda opened up a can of dead worms with the Violent Jesus But I did enjoy reading your response of Warrior Monks. You mention DC, who or what is that? Also, please, may I ask that you PM me some on your links or references upon this matter (Not the Violent Jesus references)
LOL. that's true. Just to answer what someone said about Peter pulling a sword on a guard, when He did that Jesus rebuked him and healed the guard. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword" ring any bells? Anyway, its kinda funny how this thread's turned into a religious debate, rather than a discussion on religion in martial arts. Can we get back on topic PLEASE??:cry:
